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Wiz
03-02-2003, 11:26
I spoke with someone from Honda at the bike show about the number of Vtec owners who have mentioned a hesitation or fuelling glitch at low revs on their bike. Honda (rather predictably)said that there were no such problems but having read many reports that on here about it, I thought that it's be useful to run this poll and send the results to Honda.

Feel free to add additional comment or specific information to the thread if you'd like, but bear in mind that I'm gonna send it to Honda :h

napmitch
03-02-2003, 13:35
Wiz

Yes M8, I've found that it seems starved at between 4k - 5k for a moment or two. Especially if you've held it at 4k for a few seconds first.

Topbox
03-02-2003, 13:44
My Vtec was shit on the throttle response between 4500 and 5500 all the way to the 6000 mile service when I asked the dealer to sort it out. After the service It now going beutifuly. The mechanic claimed he just balanced the throttle bodies, whatever that is.

I'm now a very happy VTEC owner

whipitup
03-02-2003, 13:53
No problems at all...............smooth as a babies bum:yo:

Calimori
03-02-2003, 14:05
I have noticed this on both Vtecs I have owned.
It feels like the bike leans off if you have low throttle and are between 4k-5k. This can equate to about 30 MPH crusing speed. Whilst you can feel it lean out it is when you then apply throttle that you can feel a jerkyness.
Though the technology behind this has now been explained by Plumbline, I was mentioning this back in April.
Top octane fuels do something to make the problem less pronounced.

Beast
03-02-2003, 14:30
Mine can be vicious at times (between 2000/5000rpm) and to frank I am riding around the problem for now as I am awaiting the results of Plumblines great detective work.

Why are you not asking Mr Honda to sort it Brian?
I am not confident that they can fully sort it to my satisfaction, to be honest (still I may let them try)

Like Keith I am wondering how many bikes that this seems to effect, and from what I have read it would seem to effect about 4 out of 10 bikes.
Other than that I am happy with the bike and I tend to keep it spinning about 7500rpm on fast roads for "Instant" power.

Brian

Calimori
03-02-2003, 14:38
Do I get two votes?
I suspect the problem comes from the way people ride or that some bikes are more prone to it. Both of mine have had a small problem but in an area I would have used.
I am more than willing to let Honda give Brian and me a day at the track to show them more of the problem.

Wiz
03-02-2003, 15:02
From what I have heard the problem seems to be more pronounced on early bikes and when after market cans are fitted. If the problem is indeed that the FI map is too lean, then race cans would make the matter worse. A high octane fuel (less prone to detonation) would make it better, so I wonder...

Beast
03-02-2003, 15:04
Mine has been to Brands Geoff (i suspect you joke ;) )
The problem is at low revs in traffic when holding the throttle at small openings for a while.
I always need to cover the clutch, just in case the bike decides to scamper off.
Brian

Yes Keith mine did get a "Tad" worse when I fitted the Staintunes.

WheresRod?
03-02-2003, 15:17
mine was very snatchy at low revs, but K&N filter cured it; didn't need to go to a Power Commander

cheers

Rod

cydernet
03-02-2003, 16:00
At around 6000 - 6500the Vtec can sometimes get a bit grippy on the throtte, as if it don't want to let go of the fuel supply.

Alan Sh
03-02-2003, 17:49
You need another vote option for those (like me) who fitted a K&N air filter to make it better.

Ned P
03-02-2003, 18:05
I commute 40 miles each way into London on a daily basis. The speeds vary from high to slow filerting through the jams. The problem seems to be in the 1500 to 3000 range when rolling the throttle on at slow speeds. The bike feels like it will stall or requires more throttle, which is not the answer. I finf myself having to feather the clutch just to keep going.
On the open road it,s a dream.:dunno:

Old Peculier
03-02-2003, 18:27
Like Alan, mine was cured by fitting a K&N air filter, pulls like a train now right through the rev range.
Wiz, you say that you spoke to someone from Honda at the show? Was there anyone there from Honda?
I got the very strong impression that the stand was manned by people from Doble's, in Surrey. I too, tried to get some information from them, but let's just say they were less than forthcoming! :bang:
(Just noticed this new emoticon so I'll use it as well!) :dunce:

Calimori
03-02-2003, 19:04
Both of mine were unaltered in any way.
My first one was built, to the best of my knowledge, at the end of 2001. My second one was built, again guessing, mid 2003.

Wiz
03-02-2003, 19:15
Originally posted by Old Peculier
Like Alan, mine was cured by fitting a K&N air filter, pulls like a train now right through the rev range.
Wiz, you say that you spoke to someone from Honda at the show? Was there anyone there from Honda?
I got the very strong impression that the stand was manned by people from Doble's, in Surrey. :dunce:


Yep, it was the Technical manager from Honda UK, but it was not at Alley Pally bike show that I saw him, it was a while ago at the NEC.

Old Peculier
03-02-2003, 19:19
:bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

Lee
03-02-2003, 19:19
On every ride out I have this damn fuel problem between 3-5k. I expect it now, and almost instantly open the throttle up to get out of it. It annoys me to think that I have to pay out a lot of money to resolve a problem that Honda flatly denies exists, when it most obviously does!

Ancient Rider
03-02-2003, 19:22
Mine has no flat spot at all (the famed 4,500 4,800 dead zone). I reported no problems on the survey as what I have is so slight it cant be called a problem, but one may call it a charicteristic. At very low (parking lot, and traffic jam type) speeds the throttle is snatchy. It takes a gentle hand on the throttle but is consistant.
I purchased it in late June (fresh off the boat from a high volume dealer) but she has the U.S. required "born on" date of 12/01. Apparently as these transport by ship they are some time in transit.
Best feel of any bike I have ever ridden.
Dewey

Jason O Brown
03-02-2003, 19:32
I had my 800FI in for some work today and ended up with their VTEC demo as a courtesy bike. The VTEC felt that it was suffering from carb icing around 4000-5000 rpm. I know, no carbs on a VTEC but the temperature was 2 deg C!!! :eek:

It also seemed to have a flat spot around 6500/7000 rpm where the 4 values start working when I got it but seemed ok when I was taking it back. Maybe it hadn’t been used all winter.

When I return it to the dealers I was too interested in what had been done to my bike and forgot to talk to them about it. I’m going pass tomorrow so I might pop in and have a talk.

It had a 51 plate.

The dealer was John Harris (http://www.jhmc.co.uk/) so knowing that there’s a demo bike out there with a similar problem might help you. Don’t know if this will help you. :dunce:

I had a similar problem around 5000-5500 rpm with my bike last summer. I told the mechanic at the service and it was better afterwards. The mechanic said he balanced the throttle bodies. However, they got out of balance over about 3000 miles and had to be redone. It wasn’t needed at the last service. It seems to have settled now. :)

Dazza
03-02-2003, 19:51
If it is related to the throttle bodies not being setup properly, then I'd imagine it's probably because the dealers are not doing it as part of the PDI which they should be.

It would certainly explain why some are OK and others are not.

Rogbear
03-02-2003, 20:34
The problem I noticed was the engine cutting out when changing down from second to first (nasty twitch if you don'e realise the engine has cut out). Someone on this site suggested increasing the tickover RPM.

Originally tick-over was about 900 RPM when I increased it to 1200 RPM the problem disappeared.

I think this was due mainly to incorrect set-up by the vendor (Motorcycle City/Riossi) than anything else.

AndyV
03-02-2003, 21:12
Slight problems - hesitation at low revs if going from over-run to on-throttle. Sometimes a bit sudden also at low revs. Didn't really realise that this was actually quite severe and I was ignoring it until fitting a K&N and being surprised at how much better it is.

Andy V

TonyB
03-02-2003, 21:25
I too suffered with terrible jerkiness at 4 - 5k and a pause just as the vtec clicked in, like it was thinking about doing something. Contacted Big H but got no reply :mad:
K&N and Staintunes made it better but still not good. Having fitted a PCIII with the map for the lazer deeptones it is a whole new experience. NO jerkiness and when the vtec kicks in it takes off like a scalded cat:D :D :D
It now kicks ass. Well prods buttock anyway. Even an unintentional wheelie, albeit a very small one :eek:
I will enquire about getting the throttle bodies balanced.

Alan sh, any chance of that section from the manual??

Dazza
03-02-2003, 21:40
Originally posted by Rogbear
I think this was due mainly to incorrect set-up by the vendor (Motorcycle City/Riossi) than anything else.

Probably true. This is also something that should be done at the bikes PDI.

gaucho
03-02-2003, 22:09
Definitely a fueling problem, and as pointed out in other threads, it is probably down to meeting emission regs. I've fitted the K&N and although this has improved matters, it doesn't cure it if your a fussy bastard like me.:rant:

I've also tried disconnecting the O2 eliminators and this has given the greatest improvement even though the FI light is bloody irritating.

And the VTEC thing is a pain in the arse in the higher gears, several times the back wheel has spun up in the wet. The effect is like the engine cutting out for a split second then coming back on line at full throttle, definitely not smooth enough.

Now awaiting delivery of PCIII to get the fueling mapped correctly and not the way H' have it at the moment.:t

red rocket
03-02-2003, 22:45
I was concerned about changing my 800 to a v.tec so printed off some of the problems listed on here
I showed them to my local dealer Lings & asked them to phone around other branches to see if there was a common problem known to their fitters.This they did while I was there & no particular problems were known of.
After I left they then phoned Mr.Steve Bing at Honda After Sales he also denied any knowledge of any particular problems with the v.tec & told them he would be pleased to talk to me
I don't think is the normally encouraged
Well I had quite a lengthy discussion with Mr Bing & read out various comments from on here & the MCN site & how people were suffering slow speed spills on hair pins etc due to engines cutting out & the flat spots etc again he reassured me he & as far as Honda were concerned no problems were known of, & that I would be buying a fine motorcycle .

Any way to cut a long story short I have been back to the dealers to report that after about 2 miles the engine dies when changing up the box. I have even increased the revs to 1400 but this made no difference Admittedly it is early days as I have only done 150 miles so it may get over it but I will leave it untill the first service in a week or so
Cheers Ian

nealeb
03-02-2003, 23:03
There seem to be two distinct problems being reported here. One is a flat spot around 4.5-5K, and I am not sure if I am seeing this on my new (170 mile old) VTEC or not - still riding gently and typically not going over 5-5.5K anyway.

However, the other problem is jerkiness and hesitation at low revs, and I definitely am seeing that. My problem is that I am not sure what is normal! Decidedly difficult on roundabouts and trickling along in traffic, as it is hypersensitive to the throttle. Maybe I shall get better at controlling it with time, but at present it is a case of wind the revs on, slip the clutch and keep a bit of weight on the rear brake. Seems the only way to avoid kangarooing along with that nasty snatching from the chain.

Dazza
04-02-2003, 00:18
Originally posted by gaucho
I've also tried disconnecting the O2 eliminators and this has given the greatest improvement even though the FI light is bloody irritating.

Do you mean you've disconnected the O2 sensors? If you have then yes, the FI light will come one. But you need the O2 eliminators from Dynojet to trick the system into thinking the sensors are still connected. Then the FI light won't be on all the time.

gaucho
04-02-2003, 01:08
Thanks Dazza, they're already on order. This was during my experimenting stage just to see if the O2 eliminators were worth the money.

cydernet
04-02-2003, 10:19
Put super unleaded in the other day and the power delivery is a lot smoother from 3000 – 5000 Revs. Surprisingly smoother.

StickyTyres
04-02-2003, 16:17
The had three seperate problems:

Low RPM twitchyness (I found I compensated alot with clutch)

4500 to 5K a slight dip in the power (enough to notice on hwy)

Abrupt VTEC engagement in 4th gear.

These issues have all more or less been resolved. Whether it was taken care of on the 4K service or simply running the bike in has resolved it I couldn't say. The 4500 -5K issue is still present on regular gas, but premium or super it's really not noticable.

I do think some tweeking of the fuel mapping on this bike would eliminate some of these issues.

The VTEC hard engage in 4th caused me to lose traction several times in turns. It could lead to rider injury especially on wet pavement if you spin the back tyre out from under you.


For those of you who are hesitant to buy the bike because of this, I think Honda should address it. As you get to know the bike it's less an issue, but if it prevents sales, it's worth addressing.

plumbline
05-02-2003, 22:51
As Brian notes .... I have looked into this in some depth. There are basically three issues :

1. Low throttle running

In closed loop operation (@ 4% up to 25% throttle position on the VTEC or when NOT in cold start mode) the ECU uses one or more oxygen sensors as a feedback loop in order to adjust the fuel mixture. This gives the name ‘closed loop’ from the closed feedback loop. The ECU uses each oxygen sensor to tune the mixture in one pair of cylinders. Normally the ECU will slowly lean the mixture for one cylinder pair, and look for the oxygen sensor showing the mixture going lean. Once this happens the ECU will start to enrichen the mixture until the oxygen sensor shows a rich mixture. The effect of this is to swing the mixture over a narrow range close to stoichiometric, typically lambda 0.98 to 1.02, which keeps the mixture close to the ideal range for the catalytic converter (14.7 : 1). The ECU will tune each cylinder pair independantly of each other.

In closed loop operation the ECU uses the oxygen sensor to tell if the fuel mixture is rich or lean. However, due to the characteristics of the oxygen sensor it can’t tell exactly how rich or lean, it only knows that the mixture is richer or leaner than optimum. The ECU will enrich the mixture if the oxygen sensor shows that the mixture is lean, and lean the mixture if it looks rich. The result of this is that the mixture will swing back and forward around the stoichiometric point (adjustment 20 times per sec with a swing period of approx 0.6 sec apparently).

Solution

Replace the O2 sensors with the dynaojet eliminator kit (£30) that way the bike runs to the curve Mr H intended and also doesn't get leaned in the 3-5k rev range.

2. Still a little hesitancy when running O2 eliminators

The std. Mr H curve is a little rich overall ....... while this doesn't pose a problem when running race end can and K&N running std. can and filter can cause a little rich operation in the 2 - 5k rev range.

Solution

K&N filter ........ and if you want it really good, race end cans.

3. Heavy kick in of the VTEC

The ECU won’t run in a closed feedback loop all the time, so ‘open loop’ is used to describe the operation of the ECU when the mixture is not being adjusted in this way (usually when the engine is cold or when running under high load - greater than 25% throttle ). If the throttle bodies are out of balance at all then this manifests itself in an "on/off" effect when the VTEC kicks in ........ solution, balance the throttle bodies.

summary below :

Quick Fix (the difference is dramatic, best £30 you'll spend)

O2 eliminators (£30)

Best value (only slightly noticable after prolonged steady light throttle. ....... great mod and best value for money)

O2 eliminators and K&N (£80)

Near to perfect (you won't notice at all !)

O2 eliminators, K&N, Race Cans (£400)

Perfect (and I mean perfect)

O2 eliminators, K&N, Race Cans and PCIII (£700)


still haven't had the dyno runs done but tried and tested all options ......

BrummyGit
05-02-2003, 23:17
Yes I have the problems. My dealer balanced the throttle bodies which did nothing for my bike.

The problem is better running on Shell Optimax but still there, and worse some days than others as though riding style, engine temperature or something buggers it up.

Beast
06-02-2003, 07:12
Thanks for that Rob (Plumbline)
So as you can see we have the answer/cure and I will be calling PDQ to order my parts now.
Brian

Do you have their number handy Rob ? (found it)


----------------------------------------------------
OK I have ordered them today
1 X K+N
2 X O2 Eliminators
Cost was £86.54 inc VAT + Postage, but they agreed to post f.o.c @ Ist class, so it is about £81...something.
I will let you know what the results are when fitted (remember that I only suffer the Low Speed Problem)
Brian

Wiz
06-02-2003, 17:32
It's great that we found the answer (that's what this forum is all about eh?) but I think that Honda should address it. I mean, they should supply you with a perfect setup out of the box, you shouldn't need to spend £700 extra on it.

I'll leave this to run for a bit longer, then I'll send it to Honda marketing and technical and see what happens...

plumbline
06-02-2003, 17:45
Keith,

the reason for the closed loop tuning is to ensure compliance with environmental legislation and also so that the catalyser lifespan is not compromised.

I don't think there are many better systems available to achieve this - Hyabusa and Fireblde owners suffer similar problems.

Anyone who operates closed loop tuning in the low rev range without impirical O2 analysis will always run foul of this. The reason they operate the control on pairs of cylinders is to minimise the effect - this can sometimes exaggerate the effect however.

I have to say the std. Honda curve is quite good - look at the level of correction applied by the PCII/PCIII and you will see just how good. It's just not perfect ........... but then neither was the Fi or the 750 before that.

mitch
06-02-2003, 20:38
Carried out the mods as described a few weeks back after touching base with plumbline. SORTED :D :D :D :D :D
I owe you a beer m8.

mitch

:yo: :yo: :yo:

Rikster
07-02-2003, 14:28
I have very little complaints about the fuelling on my VTEC, but there is bit of a kick at times when the VTEC comes in (which I wouldn't want to loose as it is part of the character of the bike). I have fitted a K&N and Staintunes and am thinking that I may as well go for the Dynojet Eliminator Kit, BUT
never having been anywhere near the O2 sensors on the bike before, has anyone posted very simple instructions of how to carry out this mod on the site before?
If not, would it be much work for someone to do?
Cheers.

nealeb
07-02-2003, 14:44
Plumbline - is what we see/feel at low revs with constant small throttle opening a result of the mixture swinging rich/lean? And the O2 eliminator helps by maintaining a steady mixture? Maybe just one side or the other of the perfect mixture, but at least not being tweaked by the electronics all the time?

Just trying to understand before committing to a cure! Especially if "engine modifications" will have to be argued through the insurance company...

cheers,

plumbline
07-02-2003, 15:27
Fitting O2 eliminator Kit

** This will not improve the performance of your bike in any way other than it will operate much better ..... but that is a performance improvement surely ???? ....... oh bugger it you know what I mean **** :}

1. Remove LHS fairing panel.
2. O2 sensors are located in the exhaust just behind the side stand .... there are two of them (one for each pair of cyls.) ... DO NOT UNBOLT THESE OR EVEN TOUCH THEM.
3. Beside the coolant resevoir there is a clear condom type thing to keep connectors dry ...... the cables from the O2 sensors run up to this point where they are attached to the wiring loom via a connector ..... DISCONNECT THESE (both of them).
4. Fit the eliminator kit (two plugs) to each of these connectors and refit inside the condom cover thing.
5. Fill the open ends of the O2 sensor wiring with clear silicone and cable tie these to the wiring which runs up to the condom things .... just so they cannot slip down and drag on the ground or get caught in anything). You may want to cover these with a small bag also to make sure that no dirt etc. gets in.
6. refit fairing
7. Off you go .... no more jerky throttle !

NOTE ..... this mod ONLY disconnects the closed loop control in low throttle position operation (4-25% .... 2500 - 5000 rpm) it has no other effect on the bike's operation ..... it doesn't alter the ECU curve or the "performance" of the bike in any way.


Nealeb,

it is partly that bu also that the mixture is adjusted lean/rish around a stoichiometric mix (14.7:1) ... i.e as LEAN as you can go and in light throttle operation every mechanic worth his salt knows that engines like to run a little rich ..... so you get the swinging and also a VERY lean mix. The std. curve has a LOT more fat built in and without the O2 sensors, doesn't swing about.

It should be noted that this system of control is EXACTLY the same as used on the 2001 pre-VTEC machines ........ I've ridden a number of these and they show similar characteristics (to a lesser or greater extent depending on the kit fitted (K&N etc), I guess these guys are just keeping quiet :}.

BTW the mod works on Blackbirds etc. as well ...... but the VFR guys found the solution first :yo:

TonyB
07-02-2003, 15:48
Rikster,
I have fitted all the suggested mods ie. K&N, Staintunes, O2 eliminators and PCIII. Not had a custom map done yet but will be doing later.
After fitting the PCIII the characteristic Vtec kick is a whole new experience as before there was a pause whilst the bike decided what to do with the extra valves it now found it had. Whereas now it just screams off into the distance leaving me with a big grin.
As for the O2 eliminators just remove the left hand fairing panel and they are just in front of the clutch housing. You do get good fitting instructions with them. The only problem is the open end of the old leads which I covered with the fingers off a surgical glove. Any other ??? just pm or mail me.

:)

gadgetmax
07-02-2003, 19:25
I've found this link really useful due to the fact I can't decide whether to get a new Vtec or wait until they sort the engine out. Thanks to Plumbline and his recent threads, I am 95% convinced to bite the bullet and go for the Vtec. If I do notice any flat spots, it seems that £100 ish should sort it out. Thanks guys.

StickyTyres
07-02-2003, 21:52
Where did you order that kit? I should have copied the info down when I had it!! I may not spring for the PCIII but do think the o2 bypass would be good to have.

Thanks.

Beast
10-02-2003, 23:48
I have posted a photo guide in the Members Area showing how to fit these rascals, I will also add some dialog later.
Brian

plumbline
13-02-2003, 09:48
Sean,

K&N and a set of O2 eliminators (available from Dynojet) ...... have the Bike Honda intended you to have before the environmentalist got a hold of it ....... unleash the beat :D

gaucho
14-02-2003, 11:24
Sean,

I ordered my O2 eliminators from Kyle Racing in the States.

kyle racing (http://www.kyleusa.com)

napmitch
14-02-2003, 13:13
Interesting thing happened yesterday.
While those guys in the servicing department where fixing my alarm, they decided my tickover was too high so they dropped it down to about 1100.
Good god the thing was jumping all over the place this morning at really low revs'. Absolutley shite. So much so that I stopped and tweaked my knob, (oo er missess) took it back up to about 1600 -1800 ish and she was fine again. :rolleyes:

gaucho
14-02-2003, 14:46
O2 eliminaters, Laser Pipes, K&N, PCIII just fitted and map for Laser pipes loaded mmmmmm......... smooth.

Think it could still do with a slightly better map as you can still feel the VTEC "kick" in 5th and 6th, much smoother though in the lower gears but retains that characteristic step up in power, bit like a power band in an old two stroke but longer.

napmitch
14-02-2003, 15:07
I didn't explain that very well, sorry.

Before the 'tweak' yesterday, it ran fine at very low revs. Though it did have a bit of a hesitation sometimes between 4 - 5k. However, after they'd dropped the tickover, the throttle snatched from pull away. It was almost uncontrollable. Once back up to a higher tick-over,(around 1600) it was fine again.

Anyone else found this ?

Calimori
15-02-2003, 13:32
I have not experienced this Nap, I have lowered mine from 1500 to 1200 as I felt it was too loud and would not explain the feeling as snatchy.
It does have more explosive vtec kick in the cold though, sense this is a combination of denser air and so more fuel giving a bigger kick. Never really a problem as I am only at that sort of rpm if I am blasting away anyway, if you slowly rise the throttle then there is no problem either.

napmitch
17-02-2003, 12:53
I think it's 02's and a K & N for me. Well. I'll start with the Viffer. :p

Beast
18-02-2003, 15:40
Tried the bike today after fitting the 02 eliminators / K+N and the result is a big improvement.

In fact It's the "Cure", the bike will now pull Clean & Strong from 3500rpm with no pause until the red-line (thanks for the info Plumbline)
Tried but failed to provoke any "snatchiness" :)

Brian

Lone Ranger
24-02-2003, 14:17
Finally got round to testing mine on Saturday. Now got 5.5k on it and it's standard engine-wise. Two-up on a dual carriageway, in top gear, steadied it at 4000rpm and whacked the throttle fully open. No hesitation, just smooth acceleration up the dial and then more power when the vtec kicked in. Same at 5000rpm. This isn't my normal style of riding though, I normally drop down 2 or 3 gears if I want to accelerate hard. Seems like mine's a good'un. :D :D


Kevin.

The Instructor
27-02-2003, 00:07
:( On my second Vtec now. The first was a complete disaster and the second with just 2500 miles is going the same way. If I sit on a throttle opening anywhere between 2000-3000 revs it misses and lurches all over the place. It is no better at high revs when new it was always eager to go and silky smooth. no as it goes past 7000 and the Vtec cuts in it sounds as though it will self destruct at any time to the extent that i have to ride at lower revs only. I have tried both bikes as standard both with Power commander O2 eliminators and Staintune. Although it alters the characteristics slightly the bottom line is the bikes have both been very ill indeed. If you are sendin this to Honda then try contacting Simon Wirely ( I think he is called) as he seems to be the only one able to make a decision down there.

Calimori
01-03-2003, 21:09
Just fitted the O2 eliminators. K&N and PC III will be added latter.

Seems to have opened up the lower end and given a clean delivery of power from low down right through to the Vtec. I would stop at this mod but some people want new exhausts, I the best power delivery the bike can give.

It took me a bit longer than expect to fit as I only remembered half the instructions and took both panels off :dunce:. I then fitted one eliminator to some other electrical item on the right side. Funny enough the primers didn't work and the bike didn't start:rolleyes:.

If you think you have a glitch, buy the eliminators and do the job yourself, it is really easy (if you only remove the left panel).

gaucho
01-03-2003, 21:56
Geoff,

Weren't you taking notes when I pointed in the vague direction of your bike and said they just plug in under there somewhere:rolleyes:

Calimori
01-03-2003, 22:03
You guys all made it sound so easy and simple that I was sure it would be an easy job and it was. But I seemed to miss the fact that they are both on the left side not one on each side :dunce:.

RedRte1
05-03-2003, 21:09
Hello fellow VFR brethren......new to the board from stateside and glad to have found it! Many of us here in SoCal (and other members on the "www.vfrdiscussion.com" board) have been dealing with the same problems in the "fuel mapping glitches". We too have come across the combo of the K&N + Staintunes (or other slip ons) & the 02 eleminators to cure most of the problem. Another thing that has seemed to help many of us is to plug the vacuum hose that feeds the "flapper valve" in the airbox lid so it cannot close at the 5K RPM level (EPA noise reduction trick). I don't know if you have it outside the states - but it helps with the 4800 - 5200 RPM glitch as well.

Cheers - Brad:yo: :yo:

gregu330
14-03-2003, 09:19
HAVE NEVER RUN ANYTHING BELOW 92 OCTANE. BUT HAVE AN ANNOYING ON/OFF SWITCH TYPE THROTTLE AT LOW RPM'S (DRIVES ME NUTS !). ALSO THE ENGINE TENDS TO STALL RIGHT AFTER "BLIPPING" THE THROTTLE BETWEEN DOWN SHIFTS. BUT IT SEEMS TO BE STALLING LESS THE MORE MILES I PUT ON. OTHER THAN ABOVE, NO PROBLEMS NOTED WITHIN THE REV RANGE.
YES YOU DO HAVE TO BE CAREFUL HANGING AROUND THE 7000 RPM RANGE WITH WET PAVEMENT. i AM ORDERING A K & N FIRST AND WILL GO FROM THERE.:D

Alan Sh
14-03-2003, 10:29
Greg, please turn off your caps lock - it is quite irritating to read.

Topbox
14-03-2003, 13:58
Greg

The on/off effect at low revs is almost certainly the throtle bodies needing balancing. My Vtec was terrible, but after complaining at the 6000 service, they sorted it out and it came out near perfect.
All the mechanic would say was "throttle bodies out".

demongroover
01-04-2003, 17:44
Does fitting the O2 eliminators have the same (or any effect) on a 800Fi (non V-TEC) ???

Should I do this?

I have an ART race can and a K&N already.

Alan Sh
01-04-2003, 17:45
Don't know, but I have 2 you can borrow !

plumbline
01-04-2003, 19:37
simon,

yes it would have the same effect ........ what surprises me is that so few people have commented on any hesitation - the closed loop tuning is the same on the FiY as it is on the VTEC.

GreenVFR
01-04-2003, 22:11
Interesting PL, Interesting.

I rode Schtum's '98 bike for a long time last week and it was really no different to my FiY.

The power delivery was maybe a little smoother but I couldn't say for sure without a back-to-back (and mine's in bits). Pick up from sub-6000rpm cruising was definately a little sharper but to be honest I never cruise at sub-6000 and then suddenly whack the throttle open. I either cruise and stay cruising or I'm above 7k anyway.

OTOH I only got 140 miles to flashing bar, whereas I get at least 170 out of mine (Schtum's brakes are binding though, so add 10 miles) and at the top end mine goes like fuck from 8500 upwards whereas his only really sang at 10K

None of these differences where significant enough to pay any real attention to and they simply required minor adjustments to riding style.

Both bikes are snatchy at parking speeds - ie going from zero throttle to a little bit, but then my CX is snatchy at parking speeds too. In fact its worse! (Although its also 25 years old and well fucked)

Which begs the question - since the FI is practically identical from the FiY/F1 to the F2 the "problems" with the VTEC low-down must be down to the combination of the two-valve operation and the FI rather than just a fueling issue per se ?

This would explain why us FiY/F1 guys are "Keeping Quiet" - we just don't see it as a problem.

Dave
P.S. Anyone got some O2 elimators I can borrow so we can experiment?

Alan Sh
01-04-2003, 22:29
Yes - PM me and I'll mail them to you !

henry
02-04-2003, 16:04
plumbline, yes and it goes even for FiX and FiW, I had exactly this problem with my 98 w. cat, and I discussed this in this forum about a year ago, even at that time the eliminators were discussed.
:p

Anyway, I've been "away" from VFR for a while, I have a ST1300 right now, and it is quite interesting that the ST1300 doesn't have that problem, yet the technic is the exact same.

So I guess that must be other parameters in this, like the weight and gearing.

So after having had the ST1300 for about 10kkm I'm now looking back at the VFR, and that might be the VTEC even without the gear whine.
So I'm a bit disapointed to see that this hesitation and jerkyness issue still exists on the VTEC. I will probably still aim for it though being a Honda V4 fanatic, so I guess I'll be installing the "standard" kit once again. :dunno:

Grahamb
17-04-2003, 16:24
With some 4500 miles showing on the clock, yesterday was the first time that the hesitancy problem spoilt the riding experience for me.

With 'SWMBO' on the back, we took a ride out with a couple of mates to the meet at the 'Red Lion', Avebury. Distance of some 40 miles each way from Reading and back. The ride out there was fine, no problems at all, Bike behaved perfectly. On the return journey, some couple of hours later, the first 10 or so miles was fine also, then I noticed a reluctance to accelerate..more noticeable in the lower gears..whilst accelerating slowly. Seemed to be worse from approx 3000 rpm up to about 5000. If I took a bigger handful of throttle..not how I normally ride...and made more rapid progress up to a cruising speed which averaged between 55 & 65mph, it had a less marked effect.

I can't remember how long this went on for, and I can best describe it as feeling like you're trying to accelerate with the brakes binding from time to time..which they weren't!! It didn't last all the way home..it seemed to get better, if not totally clearing itself..:mad:

The ride into work this morning..some 20 odd miles...not a sign of the problem...very strange.

So, looks like I've joined the club of quite a few other 'Vtec' owners in this respect.

Not much point in getting the dealer to take a look, as it's of such an intermittent nature, and Sod's Law says it wont happen if I were to take it in.

Apart from the cost - plus the fact I shouldn't have to do it in the first place - I am loathe to fork out for a Power Commander and 'O2' eliminators, especially as it can't be proved 100% to my satisfaction that this will cure the problem. From reports I've read on this site, it's not proving to be a conclusive 'fix' for all.

Although it's frustrating when it happens...because it SHOULDN'T happen, I can take some solace in the fact that I can't fault the rest of the bike. It really is a superb piece of kit.

Perhaps the problem may get worse over time, to the extent where it's happening more often than not. At least I will be able to demonstrate the problem to the dealer, in the hope that he can do something about it.

Calimori
17-04-2003, 18:12
One thought, if the ECU can learn to adjust to a new filter or exhaust pipe, could it also make up its mind to make an area run poorly? Does the ECU get reset when you turn off the ignition or am I talking nonsense?

Grahamb, that sounds like the glitch. I have noticed it less since fitting a K&N which was not really too expensive at just over £50.
Whilst I did feel a benefit when I fitted the O2 eliminators I still had the leaning effect at 4 -4.8. I plan to try the flapper valve as well but am currently getting a custom map made for my bike. I am getting this done as a favour and so only paid for the box which was the about £180, excluding the cost of the O2 eliminators.

Mashuri
24-04-2003, 20:28
Well, I've been having the same exact problems with my 2003 VFR (choppy off-on throttle response and stumble at 4-5k RPM.) Here's what I have done so far and their results:

1) Install O2 eliminators. This really helped smooth out the off-on throttle transitions but I still get the stumble at 4-5k.

2) Install Staintunes. No change in behavior. I wasn't really expecting any with this. I just wanted my cool exhaust note. :yo:

3) Have throttle bodies syncronized. My dealer checked them and said everything was in sync to begin with. Obviously, no change in behavior.

I have a K&N filter on the way so I'll try that next along with the flapper valve. If those don't work then it'll be time for a PC III.

Grahamb
25-04-2003, 09:49
Originally posted by Calimori

Grahamb, that sounds like the glitch. I have noticed it less since fitting a K&N which was not really too expensive at just over £50.
Whilst I did feel a benefit when I fitted the O2 eliminators I still had the leaning effect at 4 -4.8. I plan to try the flapper valve as well but am currently getting a custom map made for my bike. I am getting this done as a favour and so only paid for the box which was the about £180, excluding the cost of the O2 eliminators.

Calimori, strange thing is, I did the same ride this Wed (23rd) without any sign of a problem. Only difference being no pillion this time. Perhaps it's 'SWMBO' putting a curse on it...:}

Must admit I am leaning more & more towards trying out the 'O2 Eliminators' at some stage..BUT..I feel I want to wait until the problem becomes more persistent. Reading reports from others on here who have tried them, it does seem that it works for some, but not others. Who knows, over time as more miles are clocked up, it may cure itself. I'm sure stranger things have happened..:)

acampbel
23-06-2003, 06:48
Like Lazarus from the grave ....

I know that you true believers have probably put this topic out of mind now that the solution is known (O2E + K&N + pipe + PCIII) but I have been battling with my dealer & Honda to get satisfaction without having to fork out a monkey.

I had booked my bike in this morning for my dealer to test-ride and then re-tune if they thought there was a problem. This was after I had sent them messages (culled from this topic and others) to support my claim that fuelling problems were very common, and had also requested that this info be forwarded to Honda for their feedback. Apparently there had been no response from Honda, but when I dropped the bike off the story changed a bit.

To cut a long story short I finally got an admission of sorts that there is a problem. The dealer now said that it was a characteristic of the bike and "didn't I test ride it"? He then went on to say he had a Suzuki (GXR1000?) that he had to fit a PCIII to because it wouldn't respond quickly enough when nailing it at 6000RPM out of turns 2 & 3 of his favourite track. I replied that :-

A - It is impossible to test ride a bike in all conditions and situations. In fact it would be highly unlikely that a prospective buyer would tool around at 4-5 K looking for throttle smoothness.

B - I spend less than 10% of my time having a fang (where the problem doesn't present itself apart from occasional hiccups at the VTEC transition) but commute on a daily basis where the problem coincides perfectly with my preferred riding style.

He just shrugged his shoulders and said that they could balance the throttle bodies but it was a non-warrantable item so they would charge me for the labour, and he didn't believe it would make a jot of difference and neither did Honda.

I asked for the name/number of the Honda technician they had talked to and then took myself off in a huff. Expecting the standard politicians response from Honda (deny deny deny) I was surprised to get an admission that a few bikes had been returned to them with these symptoms (including from the Honda Australia Rider Training School) and they had had some success with adjusting the throttle bodies.

They recommended that I mention this fact at the next service and the dealer could ring them for some advice on the topic.

Now I am a bit confused because the dealer said that there was no adjustment per se that could be made to the throttle bodies, but maybe I can be re-educated by one of you gentle members. There's certainly nothing about it in the maintenance schedule of the owners' manual

The only trouble is I am a few thousand K off the 6000Km service so can't give you the denouement for a couple of months.

Just thought some of you might like to know ....

Mashuri
23-06-2003, 19:20
Chalk one more up for the PCIII. I added one since my last post (along with correcting my idle speed) and she now meters fuel like my '02 R1 did. She's smooth, precise and now an absolute pleasure to ride. I don't have a K&N nor have I disabled the flapper. My only engine mods are Staintunes, PCIII and O2 eliminators. I'll post if I encounter any stumbles but so far she runs absolutely perfect. It also seems that the PCIII increased low and midrange power. Definitely worth the investment in my book. :beer:

Beast
23-06-2003, 21:54
Well it has to be said that since Dyno-Jet fitted the PC111 to my bike it has never yet given me cause for concern, it also appears to use a little less fuel (not that I have ever kept accurate records)

Mine used to be very troublesome (in fact downright annoying) and others seem to have no trouble at all, still at least there is a cure for the bikes like mine.
Is it worth the expense (02s / K&N / PC111) ???

K&N is a good investment on it's own (save you money in the long term)

02s are not a lot of money in the scale of things.

Dyno-Jet PC111 has (apart from curing the low speed problem) the advantage of making the engine a lot smoother over the entire rev-range (as long as you have the "correct" map installed) & would appear to use less fuel (see above)
I cannot say if this is good value or not (never paid for mine) but in hindsight I would have eventually gone down this route (or got rid of the bike) as Mr H are unlikely to be able to sort the "problem bikes" it would seem.

Hope this helps ?
Brian

Mashuri
23-06-2003, 22:01
I would agree that it's subjective and depends if you're even experiencing these problems. If your bike behaves like mine did, stalling occasionally at stoplights and responding abruptly to throttle inputs mid-corner, then it's downright dangerous and well-worth the money a PCIII costs.

David Kelso
30-06-2003, 14:43
I to had the much debated fuelling problem. I put up with it
for 12 mths, put on a K&N filter, then took it to FW Developments
to have a Power Commander fitted. They put it on their
rolling road and set the bike up. Basically they richened it up
below the vtec then leaned it out afterwards. What a difference
it has made, there is not one single flat spot, power is up to
105bhp and is instant, smooth and stronger than before.
What Honda were up to I don't know and I should not
have to spend £385 to get it right.

teaBagger
01-07-2003, 05:32
Aussie '02 model purchased brand new in May '03 and no fuel/hesitation problems at all

acampbel
01-07-2003, 07:30
Mr T,

Not that I begrudge your good fortune but ..... you jammy bastard!

I thought that my problems would be partly due to local emission regs and standards that always seem to partially castrate the cars & bikes that we get down here. The fact that you have the exact same model as mine without any issues points to one of two things :-

1. Honda have played with the ECU
2. The dealer has adjusted the throttle bodies upon advice from Honda (or from their own experience).

The fact that the Honda Oz technicians are based in Melbourne may have something to do with it, so I would love to hear from your dealer whether they or Honda have touched the bike (tuning wise) after it came off the ship. I always assumed that the engine would already be setup, but maybe there is some pre-delivery adjustment.

Please private mail me on campbell_ecs@bigpond.com as the bouncers won't let me through that door without forking out a week's wages (10 squid).


Cheers,

Low-Life

teaBagger
01-07-2003, 08:56
I originally purchased the bike from K&J Thomas in Whittlesea but I think they did not ever touch the bike as they said it had not even been started and it had 0km on the clock.

The fact that when I took off from the dealer after shelling out my hard earned and stalled after stopping at the first intersection as the idle was set to about 600rpm verifies that it indeed had not been touched by the dealer....

Although the idle was low it would run at this level for mist of the time indicating to me that the throttle bodies were well balanced.
I had to wait until I got home to suss out where the idle adjust was... It always idled very smooth so I would say that Honda Aust would have tinkered before delivering to dealer.

My first service was at Redwing Honda - Heidelberg as these guy do seem to be the most switched on Honda dealers in Vic (the reason I used them instead of K&J)...

It could be the throttle body adjustment that is making the difference...?

Any other info you need you can get me during the day on ICQ:6893151

Cheers
John

Originally posted by acampbel
Mr T,

Not that I begrudge your good fortune but ..... you jammy bastard!

I thought that my problems would be partly due to local emission regs and standards that always seem to partially castrate the cars & bikes that we get down here. The fact that you have the exact same model as mine without any issues points to one of two things :-

1. Honda have played with the ECU
2. The dealer has adjusted the throttle bodies upon advice from Honda (or from their own experience).

The fact that the Honda Oz technicians are based in Melbourne may have something to do with it, so I would love to hear from your dealer whether they or Honda have touched the bike (tuning wise) after it came off the ship. I always assumed that the engine would already be setup, but maybe there is some pre-delivery adjustment.

Please private mail me on campbell_ecs@bigpond.com as the bouncers won't let me through that door without forking out a week's wages (10 squid).


Cheers,

Low-Life

Budweiser
03-07-2003, 09:53
Back to biking (21 years away) have experienced some of the problems described - can some one tell me what a PC111, K&N Filter and 02 eliminator are. I contacted my local Honda Dealer (Links of Ipswich) and he did not know either!!! My bike is going in for the 4000 mile service in a couple of weeks and I would like to add these items to improve the bike (based on what I am reading from you experts).

Can some one help - Thanks in advance.

Don

:dunce:

teaBagger
03-07-2003, 11:34
PCIII = Power Commander 3 - When installed you are able to download custom fuel injection maps to the bikes fuel injection
http://www.powercommander.com/

O2 = Oxygen sensor eliminators needed to stop the VFR onboard fuel injection recalibrating itself and stop the fuel injection error light from the dash lighting up once a the PC3 is installed.

K&N - K&N Air Filter: reusable / washable replacement air filter element for your bike.



Originally posted by Don Henshall
Back to biking (21 years away) have experienced some of the problems described - can some one tell me what a PC111, K&N Filter and 02 eliminator are. I contacted my local Honda Dealer (Links of Ipswich) and he did not know either!!! My bike is going in for the 4000 mile service in a couple of weeks and I would like to add these items to improve the bike (based on what I am reading from you experts).

Can some one help - Thanks in advance.

Don

:dunce:

acampbel
03-07-2003, 11:50
teabagger (Bushels?)

I think the term "have experienced some of the problems described" means that Don has got one of the bad VTEC's.

On another front I tried to email you (once I found out what ICQ was) but received the reply :-

Relaying denied 550 <6893151@pager.icq.com>... User unknown

What I do?


Cheers,

Low-Life

teaBagger
03-07-2003, 12:04
You could try this email address: 6tp4n1u02@sneakemail.com

Cheers



Originally posted by acampbel
teabagger (Bushels?)

I think the term "have experienced some of the problems described" means that Don has got one of the bad VTEC's.

On another front I tried to email you (once I found out what ICQ was) but received the reply :-

Relaying denied 550 <6893151@pager.icq.com>... User unknown

What I do?


Cheers,

Low-Life

Budweiser
03-07-2003, 15:24
Originally posted by teaBagger
PCIII = Power Commander 3 - When installed you are able to download custom fuel injection maps to the bikes fuel injection
http://www.powercommander.com/

O2 = Oxygen sensor eliminators needed to stop the VFR onboard fuel injection recalibrating itself and stop the fuel injection error light from the dash lighting up once a the PC3 is installed.

K&N - K&N Air Filter: reusable / washable replacement air filter element for your bike.

TB

Thanks for the information. Have contacted Total Tracktion (Dyno Tuning) and they are going to dynotest my bike to see what beniefits could be achieved. This will be after the 4000 mile service on the 10th July.

Thanks again this site and you guys are a real help - i appreciate it.

:bow:

testmonkeyuk
05-07-2003, 17:17
I've just bought a VTEC ABS (new) and mine's terrible.

I only got the bike 5 days ago and have so far done just under 200 miles on it. I have flat spots at 4-4500 and 5-5500rpm, the bike feels dead when switching over to the VTEC (6700-7200) and everywhere else the FI is 'hunting' like crazy.

On medium speed roundabouts it bucks like a bronco as the power cuts in and out to the extent that 100% of my focus is taken up on controlling the bike as opposed to monitoring the traffic situation. I use the bike to commute to work (my sole transport) and in traffic it's a nightmare - trying to operate one handed (visor adjustments etc.) is scary as you can never be sure when it's going to lurch forwards. Closing the throttle causes the bike to decelerate like you've just hit a brick wall.

I've been riding on and off for 16 years and traded in my 6yo YZF750 (bought new) and used to be a riding instructor. I've ridden well over 50 bikes of all descriptions (singles, twins, multis, in-line, v's) during my time and this has to be the worst engine I've encountered. Looks like I got a bad 'un!!!

I've just taken the left panel off and am about to disconnect the O2 sensors to see what difference it makes. If it feels better I will get some eliminators and will no doubt end up getting a K+N and PCIII fitted as well.

I'm really dissapointed as I bought this bike as a well earned birthday present to myself (collected on the day) and have always wanted a VFR since they first came out. I will be talking to my dealer if nothing improves after a few more miles and feel like going to trading standards, the press et al as my machine is a death trap. My concern with modding the bike to overcome the problem is invalidating the warranty. Does anybody know where we stand from this point of view?

Spending money on a bike to improve it is one thing but having to throw money at it to make it ridable is something else altogether. I feel pig sick and am never sure I'll love this bike the way I want to. Oh yes, also noticed that mine was fitted with MEZ4's as standard but the press fleet seem to have conviniently all had 020's (and no FI problems except for a dead spot around 5000) - funny that! :rant:

Like others I've noticed that there is no way to ride around the problem as it varies with weather conditions (as expected), time of day, price of apples etc. and so is totally unpredictable. I've also noticed that the engine seems to make an odd sort of popping noise occasionally, often when it's learching around at low revs. I hear an occasional jingling sort of noise at the front end and the bolts at the front of the fuel tank came loose on the second day:mad:

Fecked Off of Leamington Spa

joseph a
06-07-2003, 00:20
:bang:
testmonkeyuk

Ive both written and spoke to Honda customers services , and their response to the problem seems 2 b (PROBLEM , WHAT PROBLEM? the bikes we have tried do not have this problem, so tough) I have even pointed out that they may be liable in the case of an accident if it can b traced back to the fuelling. No reply as yet
Wait till it happens when u r in traffic, at about 15 mph, HGV up your rear, and a car a few feet in front. ? do u shut off and let the engine die, or open the throttle and risk hitting the car in front as the bike surges forward, I chose the latter and was ready with the clutch. Alls well that ends well
joe

testmonkeyuk
06-07-2003, 02:16
Hi Joe

I've also taken to using the clutch to kill the surge as and when required. My commute to work takes me round a fairly busy roundabout that is impossible to take without looking like a learner on their first day of a Direct Access course. My first day of riding the bike involved a motorway trip and for 15 of those miles I rode in some of the worst weather I've ever ridden in. I was soaked through to the skin in about 30 seconds and even at 25mph the bike was trying to aquaplane and I could hardly tell which lane of the motorway I was in (I even had rain coming down inside the helmet through the vents). Riding in these conditions on the first day on any bike would not be good but the snatchy and unpredictable nature of the engine made it er, interesting.

There is also another roundabout very close to work that I have to turn right at on the way back. It is quite small and off camber and on my YZF I used to have to square it off and would still get pushed wide on the way out. On the viffer I'm having to accelerate in and then pull the clutch in until I get upright again which as you can imagine doesn't do much for the handling and loads up the front end.

If I don't get any joy when I first speak to the dealer or Honda I will threaten to talk to trading standards, the bike press and also ask one of the friendly local bike cops to take it for a spin. Any bike journos or anyone at Honda is more than welcome to try the bike for themselves. I'll be more than happy to turn this into a very public slanging match if something isn't done about it and I'll make sure that Honda are quite aware of that fact. If they agree to change the bike I will tell them that I want it set-up by one of their top technicians from HQ and test ridden prior to delivery.

Honda's 2003 'What the papers say' brochure has the following quotes -
'VFR's are how bikes should be built - they're so well executed' - Bike Magazine
'The new VFR is faster, smoother, sharper' - T.W.O.
'At low revs, the VFR feels smooth and strong' - Performance Bikes

I'll have one set-up to the same spec as the press fleet please Mr H - oh, and don't forget to fit it with 020's (010's would be even better ;) ) not these crappy MEZ4's that don't like wet weather, white lines and lean angles.:mad:

red rocket
06-07-2003, 19:32
with out wishing to bore every body again test monkey I had three brand new v-tecs in three months that kept cutting out when pulling away again about a mile up the road from a round about etc when the engine was neither hot nor cold .
The first they spent supposedly almost £2000 on but didn't cure it they gave me another 50 miler demo to use while they got me another brand new one this being the 2003 model with no light switch & this was worse than the first so they agreed to give me a full refund apparently this must be characteristic of the bike I was told.
Guess what I now have my fourth 800 a late 2001 model with gear driven cams & as with the previous three alls well.

Still reckon all we needed was a 1000 lump sod the bloody v-tec

:beer: :beer: :beer: Ian

Alan Sh
06-07-2003, 20:08
Something is very strange - there are many of us (well, OK me) who has a vtec that has behaved just fine since day 1.

Odd things maybe to check:

1. Earth connections. I believe there are 3 earths around the bike - are they OK.
2. ECU connections. Can you break and re-make them and see if that makes any difference.
3. Starter valve synch - has the dealer checked this ? It's not a hard job (just a bit fiddly) and it may be the issue here.
4. Throttle cable slack. I run mine with about 1/2" of free play (as measured on the circumfirance of the throttle) - whats yours ?
5. Idle speed. Mine is set to 1300 rpm. I have never touched it since day 1.

Anyone else got ideas ?

red rocket
06-07-2003, 20:21
throttle slack whats that the last thing I want is to start turning the throttle & waiting for the point it's going to bite .
Hell bad enough with the on off effect the fuel injection system has .
Even if they loan me a bike the first thing I do is remove any slack I want instant response rather than looking for it.

:dunno: :dunno: Ian

Alan Sh
06-07-2003, 20:54
I'm sure that is NOT what Honda recommend.

red rocket
06-07-2003, 21:52
whats honda know look at the bloody v-tec
:} :} :}

testmonkeyuk
07-07-2003, 02:13
Not even bothered about 1000cc - the old 800 would have done if they had continued with it. I didn't buy the vtec 'cause it impressed me just a vfr 'cause they have always been so highly rated and I wanted a brand new bike. I needed something that was more comfortable esp for a pillion, was good with luggage (had the 3 piece Honda kit installed), would cover long journeys in a relaxed manner yet would still make me smile on the odd trackday. That'll be a vfr then except as things stand my knackered yzf was a doddle in comparison.

As you may have read in one of my earlier posts I disconnected the o2 sensors. Took if for a spin today to test the difference and it is slightly better but still no way near safe. It certainly doesn't need quite as many revs when first pulling away or engine brake so violently when shutting off but still seems to be stuttering on a constant throttle.

I've upped the idle speed to 1350 from 1100 and will see how it goes on the way to work tomorrow. My next step is to remove some of the throttle slack as I'm another one who doesn't like it much - currently got about 3mm and will reduce this to about 1.5 for better resistance. It's got to the point where I'm struggling to keep a steady throttle hand through fear anyway!!

I'm also concerned as I keep hearing strange noises eminating from various parts of the bike occasionally. I can't decide whether I'm being paranoid or I did really take delivery of a crate. Maybe I've got too used to riding an in-line 4 with carbs. I did take part in an article for Ride magazine a couple of years ago and rode both a 916 engined Monster and a Buell X1 Lightning which both had lumpy engines particularly the Duke and so accept that some of it is down to the v configuration (could be wrong here) and fuel injection (not wrong here). Anyone got any riding tips?:h

GlenWatt
07-07-2003, 14:58
Well I've gone and done it now.

Brian (Beast) and I fitted the PCIII (with Brian's Map) and O2 Eliminators onto my VTEC last week.

Thanks for your help and the Tea Brian.

Riding through London this morning the dreaded surge / hunting at 4 - 5 K rpm has disappeared (I'd defy anyone to now say if any negative feeling was down to the bumps in the road or if the FI is very slightly hunting) and the bike is now much much more pleasant to ride.

As Brian and I discussed, I don't believe Honda will or possibly can come up with a fix for some of the issues a lot of us are having, as the fault appears to be a direct result of Honda trying to get past the ever stricter emission laws.

Personally I can highly recommend the PCIII option, especially with the discount club members can get by buying direct from DynoJet UK, they even loaded the requested map for me to speed things up.

Grahamb
07-07-2003, 16:33
Must admit the fuelling problems I'm experiencing are starting to annoy me. It really does spoil what is by and large a superb motorcycle. If only the fuelling was as good as that I experienced on my previous bike - Fazer 600. There is still a lot to be said for carburettors as opposed to fuel injection if the 'Vtec' is anything to go by. Shame they can't get it sorted and behave as it does on cars!

'SWMBO' and I took a trip to Rockingham yesterday to watch the 'British Superbikes'. Decided to take the motorway route (M4,M25,M1) going, to make sure we got there in good time. Then return via the preferred cross country route. Sitting on the 'M' roads at around 5500 for most of the way showed no sign of fuelling problems. However, on the 'A' roads coming back, sure enough, in the 4-5K range the 'holding back' effect took hold once again. I get the impression that in the many reviews found in mags. written about the 'Vtec', that the reference to reports of lacking "mid range", is probably another way of describing this problem. To be honest, the Fazer felt as though it had a lot more go, as there were no problems throughout the rev range.

Guess I'm luckier than others, in as much as I haven't experienced the low rev surging problems...yet!! I keep threatening to try the 'O2 Eliminators'...but each time I get close to ordering a couple I seem to come across a report from other owners reporting that it doesn't seem to help the mid-range hesitancy problem.

Mine will soon be due for its 8000 mile service, and still has just over a year to go before its out of the warranty period, so I'm loathe to try anything that might affect this. Just wondered if anyone in a similar position to me has asked their dealer to take a look at the fuelling setup (ECU) at service time to try and improve things, and if so with what results?

Thing is...I'm getting to the stage where it's starting to spoil my enjoyment of taking a ride out on the bike. I'm always asking myself.."I wonder if I'll have the problem today?" Made worse by virtue of the fact that due to my style of riding, I tend to use the 4-5K range a lot. Either side of this and I don't seem to have a problem. Perhaps I'd better just 'bite the bullet' and try the eliminators, so I can at least prove whether they will help or not, especially as it appears that no two 'Vtecs' are the same, reading through these threads.

Cheers

P.S. I wrote the above offline...and now reading Glen's experiences....I guess I'll have to go the whole hog and get the PC III + eliminators.

testmonkeyuk
07-07-2003, 22:08
Latest report -

The combination of disconnecting the o2 sensors and upping the idle speed has transformed the bike. It still has problems with flat spots (4-4.5, 5-5.5 and the 6.7-7.2 vtec kick in) but on the whole it was a lot better to ride. I even came home from work with a smile on my face for the first time in my weeks ownership.

Spoke to the dealer today and they are going to take a look at it at the 600 mile (first) service. They said that they have had one other bike with a slight problem but nowhere near as serious as the issues I've got. It would appear that the mods I've made have eased the low rev surging but to eliminate the flat spots would require a PCIII.

I'll see what it's like at the end of the month when they've looked at it but will probably still end up getting all the bits to make it a silky smooth experience. I take it you have to be a HVFRC sponsor to be a member and therefore qualify for the Dynojet discount? How do you become a sponsor anyway?

Calimori
08-07-2003, 00:06
There has been much talk about the problems associated with some Vtecs, I often wonder whether each bike is different or the set up of some is wrong or it is a combination with the riders style thrown in.

I noticed the hunting problem at 4-5ish rpm on both my Vtecs. Having fitted the Q2 eliminators and then a K&N I was pleasantly surprised with the results. But what I experienced was not as bad as what other people are describing and I really think that the dealers should be involved in finding a solution.

I also got a cheap PCIII which has a custom map up to 10% throttle, this was a free tune from a friend who is pretty bloody good. This opened up the lower rev range and increased low and mid range power. The map is to be finished off over a day next week and then will be available via the members section.
To join and get the discount pay online, HVFRC Sponsorship (http://www.siliconchip.com/hvfrc2053.htm) .

testmonkeyuk
08-07-2003, 00:53
Thanks Calimori I'll get signed up!

The ECU's should all have the same map and shouldn't be an issue unless they are faulty. This map will obviously be set-up to an average bike which is where manufacturing tolerance comes into play and obviously the vtec is very susceptable to slight changes here. The PCIII is basically a fuel injection way of removing these tolerances although of course you could still blueprint the engine.

Individual rider style does probably play a part in this as well as my style is probably (at this point) not really suited to v configuration engines and fuel injection. I like to be able to play around with very small throttle inputs / power changes mid corner to produce smooth but small changes and also like very low speed balance. I'm tending to take a slower line into corners and then being more brutal on the way out as opposed to holding any constant corner speed as it seems to suit the vtec more. This style doesn't always work on larger constant radius roundabouts hence the reason why many of us seem to be highlighting issues at these.

Calimori
08-07-2003, 21:56
Agreed, due to the attempt to get a really lean map in the lower revs I think some bikes really suffer. Whilst some believe that the ECU map has been updated since concerns appeared, I notice some people are still having problems with some new bikes.

I also know a good ride out never shows up a problem but commuting or slow traffic can highlight some.
If you sign up you can have a copy of my custom one, I might even drop it over to you as I have a brother near you.
My bike currently pulls well from 2,500 RPM and suits a similar corner style to you though I will keep it on the boil when I am in the mood.
If you haven't already done so fit a K&N, it does smooth things out further. I would have skipped the PCIII had I not already bought it.

testmonkeyuk
09-07-2003, 02:09
Cheers Calimori.

I've signed up so should be able to download mappings soon!

I'll wait to see what the dealer thinks when it goes for the service (not looking forward to the 25 mile ride when I've put everything back to 'standard').

Interestingly I've noticed that the bike stays nice and smooth with the changes until I decide to give it some stick. After 'playing'
for a while the engine feels rougher and glitchy again when I go back into sedate mode :dunno:

I'll almost certainly still go for the o2 eliminators and a k+n. If I still have the flatspots after that and decide to go for a PCIII I'll give you a shout.

Thanks again.

Grahamb
09-07-2003, 10:55
Well...ordered and rec'd the 'O2 Eliminators' in the post this morning. Well done 'Dynojet Uk'...only ordered them mid-morning yesterday.

So...I'm going to try them first...before shelling out loads of dosh on a 'Power Commander', which I'm still not totally convinced that I'm in need of! Did the run down to the meet at Poole Quay last night, and only noticed one time when the 'hesitation' in the 4-5K range reared its head. The rest of time it was very smooth.

I would agree that I also experience the problem mostly after a steady constant throttle opening for several miles. As I was riding with a couple of mates last night, I was having to vary throttle openings a lot due to 'overtakes' and having to play 'catch up'. Also due to their style of riding - they're a lot younger than me :( - it meant I used the the full power of the 'Vtec' (exceeding 7K a lot of the time in short bursts) a hell of a lot more than I normally would.

I'm also convinced that atmospheric conditions play a big part in all of this, as when I left Poole at about 9:45pm there was definitely a 'cooler feel' in the air..if you get my meaning, with more moisture around. This confirmed by the fact that I rode through several areas of light mist out on the rural roads. Bike behaved just about perfectly.

If I get a chance, I hope to fit the eliminators tonight...and start monitoring the effects.

Cheers

Grahamb
10-07-2003, 12:34
Fitted the eliminators last night and managed a 20 minute ride after to see how things felt.

Must admit, it seemed much improved...BUT...as they say "one swallow doesn't make a summer"...so I need to do a few more trips over a period of time on my usual routes in order to do a meaningful comparison.

Main improvement last night being in the 4-5K range, where the 'hesitancy' had all but disappeared. The slow speed manoeuvering also seemed smoother. I didn't think that I had any jerkiness in this area before, but I guess I had gotten used to it, as turning in and out of corners didn't require me covering the clutch!

Anyways...as I said, I'm not reading too much into this until I've done a few more journeys.

I'll let you know how it goes..

Cheers

testmonkeyuk
11-07-2003, 01:23
Agreed that you definitely need a few more rides to assess for certain Graham.

After disconnecting the o2 sensors last w/e I've had a number of rides where the bike has been really smooth. Unfortunately I've also had just as many when it's been really rough although still better than before. Bear in mind that mine is a particularly bad one though.

I have (possibly niavely) assumed that simply disconnecting the o2 sensors will have exactly the same effect as if I'd fitted the eliminators except I have to put up with the FI light being on. Does anyone know if this assumption is correct or would fitting the eliminators actually make a difference?

Obviously atmospheric conditions play a part but I've noticed that mine seems worse when it's 'muggy' (temperature not so relevant) so humidity would seem to be at the bottom of it. Can't wait for the fresher weather they've forcast so that I can have a smooth bike again :lick:

Grahamb
11-07-2003, 10:32
Originally posted by testmonkeyuk

I have (possibly niavely) assumed that simply disconnecting the o2 sensors will have exactly the same effect as if I'd fitted the eliminators except I have to put up with the FI light being on. Does anyone know if this assumption is correct or would fitting the eliminators actually make a difference?



Hi Kurt,

I am of the opinion (maybe misguided of course) that simply disconnecting them would give same result, but you have to put up with the 'FI' always being on. However, I'm sure I've read on here somewhere a very detailed explanation that says this is not the case. I've just had a look at the http://www.hondavfrclub.org/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8329&highlight=eliminators thread, where 'Plumbline' gives a very good detailed account of what they do, but I didn't come across anything in there about making sure eliminators were fitted for specific technical reasons...unless I missed it of course!

To be honest, I was simply going to disconnect mine a while back to see what difference it made, but decided against this until I bought the eliminators for reasons clearly stated somewhere on this board.

Try doing a search on 'O2 Eliminators' and check out the other threads that exist on the subject...unless you already have.

I agree that the level of humidity does seem to have the most marked effect. It's a well known fact that with 'carbs', most engines seem to run better in 'damp conditions'...something I have certainly experienced in years gone by, both with cars and bikes. Oh for a decent set of 'carbs' correctly balanced...as I had on my last bike - Fazer 600. Fuelling and throttle response was just about 100% perfect.. :)

Cheers

testmonkeyuk
12-07-2003, 03:10
Hi Graham,

Plumbline :bow: sent me a PM which confirmed that there is a difference between simply disconnecting the o2 sensors and fitting the eliminators. What he's said explains why I'm a little disappointed with the results that I've achieved by disconnection alone and so I'm going to be ordering a set of eliminators. Could you send me a PM to clarify how we go about getting the members discount from Dynojet (assuming you know of course!). I've looked in the members section but didn't see any mention of it.

Moisture was always a good thing on the YZF except in winter when it used to suffer badly with carb icing. Overall though the carburation on it was superb and in combination with the EXUP valve it pulled smoothly throughout the rev range. It would even pull from 1500 in 3rd whereas my vtec (others may be different) finds it hard to pull from below 2000 in 2nd.

Alan Sh
12-07-2003, 23:13
The V4 will be lumpy below 2,000 rpm. Its the nature of the beast.

Grahamb
14-07-2003, 13:57
Originally posted by testmonkeyuk
Hi Graham,

Could you send me a PM to clarify how we go about getting the members discount from Dynojet (assuming you know of course!). I've looked in the members section but didn't see any mention of it.



Hi Kurt,

Duly 'PMmd' as requested.

Following observations in the 'PM' to you, but added here in case others are interested:-

On the subject of the eliminators, after just two outings since fitting them - one last Thur's evening, and then one this morning on my usual ride into work (19 odd miles), I have to say that I'm disappointed at the results..especially from this morning. Conditions meant that I was having to spend most of the journey in or around the 3-4K range, and at 3800 rpm with the bike basically switching between an 'ovverrun' (throttle) and 'just on' throttle condition, the jerkiness and hesitancy was terrible. Whenever I increased the throttle (slowly) above this, there was a slight delay before it took affect..with quite a jump. Not so much as to be dangerous, but certainly NOT pleasant behaviour.

I must admit, it appears on my particular machine to have shifted the the problem down lower in the range and made it worse. So far, the 4-5K problem I've experienced on quite a few..but not all..journeys, hasn't reared it's head..YET!!

So...looks as though I may be one of those unfortunates that HAS to go for the 'Power Commander' as well, and not just get away with the eliminators. Mind you, I may try fitting the 'K&N' filter as the next thing, as others have reported this to sort their problem.

For the time being..until it really p****s me off..excuse my French..I'll leave the eliminators in place, but I supsect I shall be reverting back to original setup pretty soon, as the slight hesitancy in the 4-5K range is far more acceptable than what I'm getting at the moment.

It's funny, as it definitely seems that the fuelling has gone too weak now, and I did get the impression that eliminating the sensors would help by stopping it constantly switching between rich/lean. Looks like mine were doing a pretty good job at keeping it more rich than lean!

Just goes to prove that no two bikes are the same..
:B

Cheers

Grahamb
14-07-2003, 17:25
Can someone just explain to me the benefit of fitting a 'K&N' filter with regard to helping sort out the fuelling problem, please? I understand the long-term cost savings to be had of simply having to clean & oil it at service intervals..and not having to replace the OEM part each time.

Does a 'K&N' enrich or lean out the mixture overall..or am I missing something obvious? I get the impression that my 'Vtec' is too lean, and if the 'K&N' were to lean it even more, this would simply mean I'd have to go the whole hog and get a 'Power Commander'. Something I'm trying desparately to avoid...as I'll soon need to spend the hard earned pennies on a new rear tyre and forthcoming 8K service.

Cheers

Calimori
14-07-2003, 20:16
The K&N give a 'cleaner' delivery of air and so gives a cleaner feel to the throttle.
I would allow them to do the 8K service before commiting to the PCIII and whilst it is in, get them to look at the current problems you are experiencing.

Beast
14-07-2003, 21:04
If it's any help I will be seeing Dave Hancock this week (Honda UK) and I will not be lacking in the "Demanding Answers" dept.

Does not mean I will get any!, but if you don't ask, you don't get ;)

Brian

testmonkeyuk
14-07-2003, 22:14
Originally posted by Beast
If it's any help I will be seeing Dave Hancock this week (Honda UK) and I will not be lacking in the "Demanding Answers" dept.

Does not mean I will get any!, but if you don't ask, you don't get ;)

Brian

Good luck!

Give 'em hell for me whilst you're there - this is supposed to be my dream bike but most of the time it's a nightmare.

Has there been any further developments with regard to a mass ride-out to Honda HQ in regard to these problems? I'd be up for it but could we all space ourselves out at least 20 secs apart otherwise all of us with fuelling problems are going to skittle each other during power surges on the way there (visions of a Keystone Cops moment pass before my eyes).:}

Grahamb
15-07-2003, 10:25
Originally posted by Calimori
The K&N give a 'cleaner' delivery of air and so gives a cleaner feel to the throttle.
I would allow them to do the 8K service before commiting to the PCIII and whilst it is in, get them to look at the current problems you are experiencing.

Thanks Calimori. Yup..good advice. I'm going to re-connect the 'O2 Sensors' soon, as the bike was a 'peach' to ride compared to now with eliminators in place.

Cheers

Grahamb
15-07-2003, 10:27
Originally posted by Beast
If it's any help I will be seeing Dave Hancock this week (Honda UK) and I will not be lacking in the "Demanding Answers" dept.

Does not mean I will get any!, but if you don't ask, you don't get ;)

Brian

Thanks Brian...but as you intimate, I wont be holding my breath..;)

Grahamb
15-07-2003, 10:29
Originally posted by testmonkeyuk
Good luck!

Give 'em hell for me whilst you're there - this is supposed to be my dream bike but most of the time it's a nightmare.
.:}

Seconded...:B

Jason Creasey
17-07-2003, 21:24
(A note for myself)

17/7/03: Printed out this thread up to this post, & given to Honda UK during Beast's & my meeting with them 18th July '03

JC

testmonkeyuk
17-07-2003, 23:17
Now I'm really cheesed off - today was just about the last straw :mad:
I've fallen off / been knocked off bikes and not felt as miserable as I did this morning.

Journey to work started off not too bad, a bit snatchy but it's been worse. Within about 2 miles all of that had changed. Normally I can at least find somewhere in the rev range (below vtec engagement) that is smooth enough to ride in. This isn't perfect as traffic conditions don't always allow you to use this area but it gives a little relief when you can. Today there was nowhere below 6000 that was smooth. Twice I almost got pitched off and the whole journey was a complete nightmare. I'm now considering moving to Texas to take up rodeo riding as I feel I've done all the training I need. I can't even slip the clutch to help matters as there is very little movement between clutch just biting and fully engaged. With the clutch slipping it still jumps around and there are times when I'm having to coast (including round corners) just to get around.

This is my only form of transport (never bothered passing the car test as I love bikes so much) and the way I feel right now I'd be glad if I never sat on the thing again. Even if the dealer or Honda (fat chance) would admit there was a problem and give me another bike I'm not sure I could ever totally trust it as others have reported problems appearing after 6000 miles or so.

When it's good it's good but when it's bad it's deadly.

I just want to sit in a corner and :B

Slice1609
19-07-2003, 08:06
To those with the Fueling Problem, I have the same problem, and I agree Honda or the Dealers don't know about it... I read one of the post it stated "it's running to lean with a slip-on", I do have a Vance&Hines slip-on and that makes sense, I have had to replace the plugs a few times due to the fact, they were wearing the indications of being to lean, that statement was very helpful to me, I didn't even think about the slip-on...... I am going to start using a higher octane fuel to se if that will help the problem... I also think another thing is, they may need a little adjustment in the throttle body area, from what I can see in the big repair manual, you have to readjust them at a set mileage, which I can't remember of the top of my head.... The adjustment is one thing I haven't got the nerve up to perform....
Something else you can do, that will help the performance a little, buy a K&N air filter, I've notice a little help on the performance all around... Plus it's cheaper in the long run, considering the price Honda wants for the filter.... Next option on list, K&N Power Commander, they say it's well worth the money....
Also, I was reading on another web site, in reference to performance, clutches, ETC..... Weight of oil, Presently I am using the Honda high performance w/o Molly, I believe it's 5w30 or 10w40, can't remember... What I read is, some area that the temperature is greater than other, you may need to use a thicker viscosity oil to compensate for the higher heat..... VFR's do tend to run a little hotter, and sitting in traffic especially, the statement did say it seem to help the engine perform better when it came to heat, take-offs and road riding... Does anyone have any suggestion on the type of oil I may get buy with, what do some of you use???
Anyway, I thought I would post, A Novel, LOL.... I hope the info I supplied may be of help to someone, as in the info I read here.... TTYL, Keep Both Wheels Up.... Later, Ron....

Grahamb
22-07-2003, 13:26
Re-connected the 'O2 Sensors' last w/end and took my first ride since doing, into work today.

How nice to have a reasonably behaved machine back again. All problems I suddenly started experiencing when I fitted the eliminators have now disappeared. Guess the sensors must be doing some good on mine..:)

In fact, bike felt really good....but to be fair, it also sports a new rear 'BT020 U' plus I've reduced the preload on the front (now showing 3 rings)..which all seem to have contributed to a much better riding experience.:yo:

B.T.W. Tyre was £93-11 from Micheldever Tyres - loose wheel fitting price.

S'funny...as I must be missing the point, but everything I read on the subject of preload seems to advise on increasing preload (firmer ride) when road surface rough...and the opposite when smooth. All I can say is that I travel some pretty rough back lanes to/from work, and with the softer setting on the front this morning it was a far more pleasant experience as it seemed to iron out the bumps better, which is what I would expect with more suspension travel (softer).:dunno:

Anyway, as far as my 4-5K fueling problem is concerned, I'm still going to let the dealer have a go at fixing (if they can) before considering going down the 'PC III' route. I just get that horrible feeling that I might not get the results I'm after by fitting the 'PC' and re-fitting the eliminators, as my bike is certainly not as bad as reported by other owners.

Cheers

gaucho
22-07-2003, 14:52
Originally posted by Grahamb
plus I've reduced the preload on the front (now showing 3 rings)..which all seem to have contributed to a much better riding experience.:yo:

S'funny...as I must be missing the point, but everything I read on the subject of preload seems to advise on increasing preload (firmer ride) when road surface rough...and the opposite when smooth.

The point is to stop the suspension bottoming out. i.e. if you travel over a bumpy road with soft suspension you will soon run out of travel before the forks have had a chance to recover, also with a soft setup the front will dive under hard braking with the tyre having to do all the work instead of the suspension taking up the force resulting in the possibilty of the front locking up (non ABS). Finally if you ride reasonable hard the bike will wallow in bends and possibly upset the rear of the bike and under the worst scenario you could lose traction at the front if you hit a bump mid corner.

If you ride like She you'll have no problems :} :}

RJT
22-07-2003, 15:45
Please allow me to wade in with more information.

I've got a little over 2,000 kms on an 02 VFR. I had never had any issues up until now.

I recently did a 550 km one day trek in 28C temp and the bike started to feel off, kind of missing, at about 300kms into the trip (at 4000 rpm in 5th or 6th). Towards the end of the trip, in slow, hot city traffic, it started to "chug" or feel like it was running out of gas. Also, during this time the temp stayed around 105C. It stalled once at a corner.

I did ALOT of research and here's what I've found:

1) Fuel:
- high compression engines should run a higher octane fuel (the 02 is 11.6:1 which is high)
- high engine temp can increase need for higher octane
- high air temp can increase need for higher octane
- use of oxygenated fuels; can confuse O2 sensors, is good for the catalytic converters, runs fine in my Volvo V70 (89 AKI)

I've decided to go with 89 AKI ethanol (up to 10%) like in my car. I was running 87 AKI ethanol.

2) VFR FI issues:
- seems very much related to the emissions package trying "too hard"
- re the O2 sensors, many other bike sites have posted mods to get them BACK into their exaust mods...
- although going with a PCIII and new pipes would prabably help alot, I don't want to spend that kind of cash and don't want the headaches of the maps, etc.
- better air flow would probably help...

I've installed and ran with a K&N on the weekend. The difference is very obvious. Engine seems to breathe much better at all RPMs. Pull from low 3000 rpm is much better, doesn't choke at all (although I would suggest rolling on gently when you know your at too low rpm for the chosen gear...)

All in all I strongly recommend the K&N to everyone, period.

Jason Creasey
22-07-2003, 16:00
Hi guys,

This is an extract from my post regarding Beast's & my meeting at Honda UK last week, the full version of which can be read here. (http://www.hondavfrclub.org/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=163890#post163890)

--

Fueling Problem

Dave Hancock has reported the problem to Japan & is awaiting a reply. Brian & I very much pressed on the points that 'someone's going to go to get hurt soon (literally!) by this problem', & 'let US help you / you help us to sort out this problem, because it DOES exist whatever Japan say'. (Dave acknowledged he'd received complaints about the problem, but they've yet to come across it 'in person' as it were....)

We are trying to negotiate a bike-swap between Honda & one of our members that's experiencing particularly bad fuelling problems with their VTEC, so Honda can make investigations themselves on a known 'problem-bike'.

What I'd like VTEC owners to do is keep an accurate, objective record of any 'fueling' problems with their VTEC over (let's say) a month, & PM their findings to me. I will send this to Honda when we arrange the bike-swap. Please, do NOT include stuff like 'this bike sucks' etc etc, otherwise I'm afraid I'll just trash it. (I'm more than willing to help you guys, but you MUST help me too as I don't have the time to wade through superfluous information.) 'Concise, objective detail' is the key phrase here please. Maybe carry a notebook or dictaphone, & (for example) take notes on things such as:

The time & date of the problem (to see if there's a pattern forming) / How long since running from cold? / The temp of the engine? / What manouvere you were executing before the bike tried to execute you? / Throttle position? (e.g. closed? 25%? etc) / Rev's?

I know that's a lot guys, but if we can establish a pattern, it's going to help us & Honda to resolve this issue sooner rather than later.

One important thing to note: Eilot said one of the possible causes is the starter-valves need synchronising, so if you know how to do it, or can get your local dealer to check this out for little or no money it may be well worth doing.

--


All the best,

Jason

testmonkeyuk
22-07-2003, 17:02
Thanks Jason.

I've sent a fairly detailed e-mail to Beast after your meeting last week to explain the problems but will start running a daily log (as a test engineer this ain't no shakes to me :D ).

I'll e-mail it mid to late August if I don't here anything before.

Slice1609
23-07-2003, 01:31
In reference to O2 sensor eliminator's and PCII'sand PCIII's.... The ECU is designed to read the O2 Sensor under certain conditions and temporarily change the air/fuel ratio... So what it is say'n is, depending on the RPM's and your speed, and how long you hold it at that speed, the O2 Sensor's are going to send a message back to the ECU telling it the air/fuel mix needs to be lean or rich... Putting an O2 eliminator's on with-out a PCII or PCIII will have the effect of telling the ECU that the air/fuel is to rich and need to be leaned out.... The way to do it,is to use the eliminator along with a PCII or PCIII, and you can tun your bike the way you want via button's on the Commander or your Computer, downloading different maps, or using the already programed map for your bike, that comes downloaded from the factory, which you can control it and get the perfomance you want out of it.... I'm going with that set up for now to see how it performs, I will try to feel you in on it...... TTYL, -Ron-

Grahamb
24-07-2003, 09:48
Originally posted by gaucho
The point is to stop the suspension bottoming out. i.e. if you travel over a bumpy road with soft suspension you will soon run out of travel before the forks have had a chance to recover.....

Thanks for the explanation Gaucho. I guess it all comes down to riding style and amount of comfort required by the rider.. ;)

Must be an 'age thing' (for me at least)...as I definitely want the comfort and am not one for blasting as fast as I can round corners. Only time I tend to turn the wick up is on straight smooth roads, so happy to go for the softer settings. I also appreciate the fact that I experience less 'jarring' of the hands / wrists / arms..:)
If you ride like She you'll have no problems :} :}

That's me to a 't'...:D

Cheers

Catseye
05-08-2003, 08:09
Hi all
Followed this website for a while, (great site ). Thought I would register and input my experience with this fuelling issue.

Have a 03 model, in RED of course, with 1,000 miles, no engine mods. The bike suffers from hesitation or fuelling glitch at low revs but beyond the engine is fantastic. No hesitations at 4k-5k range or just before the Vtec kicks in. I had previously test ridden two 02 model 's. On both these machines there was a very noticeable surge when the Vtec kicked in. This did not prevent me from buying the new Vtec. She's absolutely fab.

One happy Vtec Owner :yo:

Jason Creasey
07-08-2003, 01:20
Hi folks,

Further to an email from Chris S ( - who made the following discovery at his local Honda dealer,) I was going to type a post telling everyone with the fuelling problem on an 01/02 bike to rush to their Honda dealer & get an '03 ECU fitted.... I'm glad I didn't, which I'll explain in a minute. Chris wrote this in another thread:

---

Chris S wrote:

I had quite a long chat to one of the guys in Brian Grays,yesterday (Peter, if you know him, really helpful) about the V-TEC engine surging problem reported on the site.

His answer was [...] " We have seen one or two V-TECs through here with this problem, all fitted with the 01 and 02 engine management systems. When we reported the problem to Honda they eventually told us to fit the 03 engine management system and this solved the problem on all the bikes. It's a bit tricky to fit because it is linked to chips in the keys but it fixes the problem."

---


Not wishing to take the wind out of his sails much ( - I'll therefore be brief,) Mitch has had the ECU changed on his VTEC to the '03 unit, AND had the starter valves synchronised (UPDATE - the starter valves were NOT adjusted... dealer mis-informed Mitch.... new info to follow shortly.) Everything was initially spot on a few days ago........ until now. The first 12 miles today were fine, then things started going wrong. Similar symptoms are back again (i.e. the stuttering, surging & so on.) Maybe at different rev's, but similar to before, & definitely there

Just when you think we're finding a solution :(

We'll keep you posted...

JC

Beast
07-08-2003, 14:16
I have sent this mail today to Michelle Hill who is the new head of Customer Relations at Honda UK.
-------------------------------
Hello Michelle.
We meet briefly at Langley recently when Jason & I came over to see Kirston, and we spoke about some of the fueling/service problems being experienced by a number of our members.
Dave & Eliot are aware and have asked for one or two of the worst bikes to go into Poyle to see if they can track down what is going on!
I have copied below what is happening..........
---------------------------------------------

Brian East
Hi Brian, good to meet you yesterday, hope you enjoyed yourself.
Bike was a bitch yesterday, possibly the worst to date, suffice to say I went to see the local George whites where I bought the bike from originally. Complained about the crap attitude of their Swindon branch and the bike , and gave them an update on the situation re: the bike going back to honda in the future, I asked that they change the ECU asap as the bike is a bloody liability to ride in traffic. They are changing the PGMFI next week with the 03 version - (apparently there has only been two versions to date). This will either prove or dismiss the ECU as the problem.I don't think they would have done this if I had not mentioned yours and Dave Hancocks involvement, interesting that when they spoke to honda this morning to order the ECU the response was -fit the 03 unit !! will keep you posted, hopefully by the time dave hancock returns we will know either way, sorry to have jumped the gun but I had one too many close calls filtering through the M25, and to be honest figured I'm playing a percentages game every time I'm on it and they aint in my favour !! If this doesn't work Honda can have the bloody thing for as long as they like.
cheers

-----------------------------------
Hi Brian, had the new ECU fitted today together with the injector slides / throttle bodies ? balanced.
Conclusions: from tick over and pulling away bike felt so unbelievably smooth compared to before, on reflection it previously felt like the timing was out - in old fashioned language, or the injection was way out of sync somewhere. This is also borne out by the fact that the vibration from the engine was considerably less , will take sharon out tommorrow to confirm this as she could tell when the bike was playing up by the degree of vibes in the pillion pegs.Did a fair bit of fast and also trickling along in slow traffic, throttle response is still on/ off but so far there has been no evidence of the previous fueling problem ??!!
Will keep you posted as I'm off the back end of this week and plan to get some early morning rides into north wales in. Hopeful that this is the solution but I'm reserving judgement for a couple of hundred miles. looking good at the moment though. Haven't gone public on this yet, do you think I should post this news ?

mitch
----------------------------
Hi Brian, well whatever the problem with the v.tec is it isn't the ECU, did around 90 miles this evening first 12 or so were fine and then back to normal service with the fueling problem, is it fueling ? now happens at 4.5 rpm, sharon felt every occasion so much so that she can now tell me what revs it happens at ! 3.2 / 3.5 / 4 / 4.5. roughly 25 - 30 occurences in the trip. Had two close calls, one on a roundabout - slow speed , one on a sweeping bend 4.5 rpm increasing to drive through when it just bogged down on me, drifted wide, came in with a surge and left us skirting the hedge. Not impressed, couldn't get home soon enough. this thing is gonna cause a serious accident. Will contact george whites and demand a replacement or refund as I am totally exasperated and disillusioned with the bike. In short I do not consider it safe to ride. will keep you posted

mitch
----------------------------
So as you can see Michelle, owners are becoming disillusioned/frustrated/angry at being put into a dangerous position (as they see it) and this bike is not the worst example!

As I said Dave Hancock is aware and is trying to find out what is wrong, but! I cannot stress to strongly the urgency of finding "the cure" for what is becoming a growing number of faulty bikes (we appreciate that you have just been appointed to head up the team)

BTW we are just as anxious to find out what is going on as you at Honda UK are, and speaking for myself if I was working at Langley I would be asking this club the questions/feedback/help and not the other way around!

We are (as you know) the most important element in the operation and the very reason for your being where you are (you being Honda UK) and having said that (need to rant on occasion, sorry) Jason & i where impressed at our reception over at Poyle/Langley and the willing attitude of Kirston/Dave/Eliot & Yourself.

You can reach me on 07932 767104 anytime.

Regards



Time will tell!
Brian

red rocket
07-08-2003, 22:29
hi beast well you must have read how my first v-tec in january had a new 2003 ecu fitted to what was a new 2002 bike it had new injectors fitted all the sensors they could find tried another fuel tank spent almost £2000 they said .
In the end took it back and gave me another it has just been sold and the guy just phoned to ask why I had got rid when told because it kept cutting out he said f..k thats whats happening to me .
They then gave me another this time 2003 did 500 miles on it & they gave me my money back saying it must be a charactaristic of the v-tec as it was worse than the first one .
Funnily enough a nice lady phoned me from honda tonight asking if I had had my first service done yet soon told her they were crap & had been given my money back.
It would have been nice if honda uk had taken some interest in my case & gone out of their way to sort my bikes rather than leaving me with not a good word to say about the v-tec
:rant: :rant: :rant:

kaldek
08-08-2003, 12:09
What the heck is going on in Europe? I haven't heard of this problem in Australia or the USA yet. I mean, there are some niggly glitches, but nothing like what you guys are experiencing.

So very wierd....

Kaldek

Jason Creasey
09-08-2003, 11:26
Hi everyone,

To keep you all in the loop, this is what's happening to Mitch's bike since the problems have come back post-fitting the new ECU:

It turns out that when George Whites fitted the new ECU, they DIDN'T check/adjust the "injector bodies" ( = starter valves?) It also turns out the the 'ECU swap' idea put forward by Honda technical was for another problem, that being to "cure a shutdown problem with the ECU" (I can only assume they mis-interpreted the problem that Whites were describing.....) So it seems from this new info' ( - as well as the fact that Mitch is having 'fuelling' problems again,) that the ECU is perhaps NOT the cause of the fuelling problem. Mitch further wrote:

"[Honda technical added] that my problem sounded like the injector bodies were not balanced. I explained [to George Whites] that I'd asked for this to be done when they fitted the ECU... IT WASN'T...! They then said that they had checked and found that my injector bodies were not done at the 4k service either! Their mistake.... really sorry.... Could I bring the bike in Saturday [9/8/03] for it to be done...."

I'm trying to get clarification if what they're calling 'injector bodies' are actually the starter valves... (which I think might be the case, as Eliot @ Honda UK said the starter valves may be the cause of the problem...)

So.... hopefully today, George Whites are doing this job.

Fingers crossed. Will keep you posted

Jason

testmonkeyuk
09-08-2003, 23:48
For Mitch's, mine and everybody elses sake that's having problems I really do hope that it is the starter valves and this magically sorts it for all of us.

I doubt it though as I'm sure between us we've had the throttle bodies, starter valves, injector bodies* etc. etc. done.

I'll be on the blower to my dealer again on Monday to see if we can get some movement on the issue. Dave Hancock was supposed to be phoning them about my bike but hadn't last I spoke to them.

Keep up the good work fellas!

*These could all be one and the same thing ;) - just ask your friendly local Honda dealer. Let's be honest, they don't seem to know what bits are which are what should be adjusted.

Jason Creasey
10-08-2003, 09:04
Originally posted by Jason Creasey
I'm trying to get clarification if what they're calling 'injector bodies' are actually the starter valves... (which I think might be the case, as Eliot @ Honda UK said the starter valves may be the cause of the problem...)

According to the Haynes manual for my fi-X, "The throttle body assembly must be treated as a sealed unit..... pre-set at the factory....The only components on the assembly which are serviceable [i.e. adjustable] are the starter valves."

I would have thought it's the same for the vtec, so it [i]must be the starter valves that need adjusting..... (in theory!)

>For Mitch's, mine and everybody elses sake that's having problems I really
> do hope that it is the starter valves and this magically sorts it for all of us.

Yes, let's hope so Kurt...

Jason

Beast
10-08-2003, 09:15
I adjusted mine on Friday and the engine felt a lot crisper.
I will let you know how much better when I get a little more time on the bike.
One was 7 clicks out (just over a full turn) & another was 5 clicks out.

Brian

testmonkeyuk
11-08-2003, 02:26
For somebody more technical than me, I take it that when my 'throttle bodies' where adjusted at the first service then that what they worked on was the starter valves?

If so then this is both old hat (Honda have already told most dealers this) and whilst making a difference they don't cure completely cure the problem. Mine surges less (but still surges) since I had them done but now has more flat spots than Holland. Less dangerous now but still not right to the point where I can trust it totally.

Grahamb
11-08-2003, 18:03
Whilst it's still fresh in my mind, just wanted to relate my experiences yesterday.



10th August

Weather Conditions: Mostly dry and fine. Not that hot. One short sharp shower on last 2 miles of outward journey.

Journey undertaken: Long trip - Reading to Oulton Park and back. some 350 mile round trip.

Type of roads: Motorway for approx. 90 miles. Dual carriageway and good 'A' class roads for all but the last 2-3 miles both ways.

Observations: The hesitancy struck with a real vengeance as a lot of the time was spent with a constant throttle being held mile after mile in the 70 - 75 mph (4.5 to 5K) bracket. Throttle action felt more like operating an on/off switch. Where it should have been easy and straightforward to open the throttle a little to compensate for inclines and thus maintain the same speed, I found that as I increased a small amount nothing would happen...then all of a sudden it would seem to wake up. Of course, I had continued opening the throttle waiting for some response, and as a result of this when it did, it was too much..and resulted in increased speed beyond what I needed. So..start backing off a little and the whole process starts to repeat itself.

VERY tiring and irritating to say the least. It just wont recognise small increases in throttle openings (nice and linear) as I was accustomed to on my last carburretted bike. Even when the road (loads on the M-ways) was level, the speed started dropping off at constant throttle. Methinks some definite over weakening of the fuel mixture!

If I decided to 'up the pace' and cruise along at say 85 mph, it seemed to run sweet as a nut. No surging on slight increase of throttle opening..or at least none that I could discern, but an immediate response as expected to small increases in throttle opening. No dropping of speed on the level. It seemed a different bike in the 5.5 to 6K range!!! However, I don't want to have to travel all the time at speeds of 80-85mph or more, besides, road & traffic conditions usually dictate otherwise. Bike should behave well at all speeds. I like and want to use the 60 to 75 mph range a LOT.

All in all...it was a frustrating riding experience. Even my wife commented on how she felt the surges, despite my best endeavours to try and mask it to make the journey more pleasant for her.

It really isn't good enough, and if this is what fuel injected bikes have to offer, then give me a good set of properly adjusted carbs any day!!!


Sorry to rant....but it's getting beyond a joke now...and to top it all..we fell off..but that's another story.. (http://www.hondavfrclub.org/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=170657#post170657)

Cheers

P.S.

Jason,

I'm keeping a log on the journeys I do this month...but I just felt I needed to let others know of my experience yesterday.

blackbird
11-08-2003, 20:19
take your bike out and give it a good ow throshun, red line it a time or 2

testmonkeyuk
11-08-2003, 21:30
Originally posted by blackbird
take your bike out and give it a good ow throshun, red line it a time or 2

Nice idea but it doesn't work. Once mine has been in the vtec range the fuelling goes mental below it for the next couple of minutes. It's almost as if the ECU has a short term memory problem and can't decide whether it's still in the vtec range ..... or not ..... or is ..... or not.

If I ride everywhere really sedately with steady acceleration and never let the bike get over 6k I get loads of flat spots. If I try getting a bit frisky with it I end up with a bag of sh*te. Trying to make progress away from busy junctions etc. means changing gears faster than you can count them.

Jason Creasey
11-08-2003, 23:46
Guys.... I think Mitch has possibly found the answer.

He got the bike back having had the starter valves adjusted, & still no (major) improvement.

So, the hero took matters into his own hands... He torched his vtec.

:}

Oh alright... he took it to bits... ;) Just to clarify, all bits in [ ] were scibbled by me. But otherwise, Mitch wrote:

------------------------

"I decided to tackle the job myself by doing one thing at a time, and then test-riding the bike.

1) Refitted the o2 eliminators: no change.

2) Refitted k & N: no change.

I figured the new ECU was okay, so must be either getting a duff or corrupted signal from sensors or external interference (e.g accesories.)

3) Disconnected all accessories: no change

Stripped bike.....

4) Checked all earthing: no change.

5) Checked all cable routing, cable integrity (continuity) between sensor plugs and ecu: no [obvious] changes.

[HERE'S THE IMPORTANT BIT FOLKS!] :

6) Checked all sensor plugs. The connectors/terminals on the TPS ['throttle-position sensor' on the side of the throttle bodies,] the IAT ['intake air-temp' sensor in the airbox,] and (I think) the bank control sensor [somewhere in the front of the fairing] were not so good Cleaned the contacts + coated them in contact cleaner = R E S U L T!! I've done about 30 odd miles mixed riding, but a lot at 30 / 40 mph, & no probs at all."

Mitch as further reported today 11/8/03:

"I've been out on the bike for several sweaty hours, doing a mixture of fast open roads and a lot of slow steady stuff through villages etc. I'm almost afraid to report that, apart from one small engine-hunting type moment, all seems to be ok. I've deliberately been trying to get the thing to play up by bimbling along at dead-on 30mph for miles.... no problems."

He also wrote between a mixture of his PM's:

"The TPS sensor is well under the tank so its hard to see how it could get wet. However, the other two are in positions where, if [the bike was] left static in the rain, they could easily become wet and subsequently corrode, as neither connectors appear to be waterproof! [..........] The corrosion was not the worst I've seen, but we [i]are talking about small voltages here."

"Would it be worth getting testmonkeyuk to do the same checks as me? It looks like mine seems to be sorted thank god..."

------------------------

I don't want to lead anyone on a wild goose-chase, but seeing as Mitch's results look very positive, it would be AWESOME if any of you who are handy with a spanner can clean up the connectors on the 'throttle position sensor', the 'intake air temp' sensor in the airbox, & the bank angle sensor. In view of the fact the last one is inside the front fairing, you might want to start with the TPS & IAT sensors & see how things go from there. (Whilst I'm no mechanic, I'd personally start with just the TPS sensor (to help hone the results) as logic would suggest this is the one most likely to confuse the ECU about what your right wrist is doing....) Alternatively, ask your dealer to do it under warranty if you're having problems. (I think it'd be better if you can do it though, because you then know the contacts really have been cleaned properly...)

The more positive results we can get from this the better folks! Good luck, & do let us know your results.

Nice one Mitch!!

JC

testmonkeyuk
12-08-2003, 00:56
If you've cracked it Mitch you're gonna' be on my Xmas card list for life.

I'll speak to my dealer tomorrow (I'm crap with spanners and would just break something) and ask them if they could be so kind as to do each one at a time with me taking a test spin between. I'll also ask if I can watch as 'I may need to do it myself in the future - my poor bike lives outdoors).

I'll explain to them how important it is for them to co-operate seeing as how they will be the guinea pig dealer. If they don't sound too keen I shall phone Kirsten and get her to get someone in authority to insist (well I'll try anyway).

I've had a bummer of a day as my new computer didn't turn up but this has just cheered me up no end [drops on knees and preys]. It certainly sounds like it could be right as the bike often seems to 'ignore' changes in throttle inputs. Why the hell couldn't Honda find this before now though (assuming Mitch has found the cure). 'Let's see now, the fuelling doesn't appear to be right - so that'll be fuel flow / breather pipes, ECU or any sensors that connect to it, air intake or general electrical.' Now I know that's a few things to check but it doesn't take a genius (no offence Mitch).
Sheesh :t

I'll let you guys know what's happening once I've spoken to the dealer.

Grahamb
12-08-2003, 10:46
Originally posted by Jason Creasey
Guys.... I think Mitch has possibly found the answer...

[HERE'S THE IMPORTANT BIT FOLKS!] :

6) Checked all sensor plugs. The connectors/terminals on the TPS ['throttle-position sensor' on the side of the throttle bodies,] the IAT ['intake air-temp' sensor in the airbox,] and (I think) the bank control sensor [somewhere in the front of the fairing] were not so good [i.e. SIGNS OF CORROSION] Cleaned the contacts + coated them in contact cleaner = R E S U L T!! I've done about 30 odd miles mixed riding, but a lot at 30 / 40 mph, & no probs at all."

Jason / Mitch,

I'd be more than willing to have a go at checking them out as I'm quite happy to wield a few spanners. I've lifted up the tank and taken the airbox assembly off in the past to fit the vacuum take off lead when fitting a Scottoiler...BUT..would appreciate some pictures or diagrams showing exactly where the components you speak of are located before I attempt it..if poss..please?

What contact cleaner do you advise getting....or would WD40 do?

Mitch as further reported today 11/8/03:

"I've been out on the bike for several sweaty hours, doing a mixture of fast open roads and a lot of slow steady stuff through villages etc. I'm almost afraid to report that, apart from one small engine-hunting type moment, all seems to be ok. I've deliberately been trying to get the thing to play up by bimbling along at dead-on 30mph for miles.... no problems."

Mitch,

Have you had a chance to check results for the 'hesitancy' problem in the 4-5K range yet....if indeed you suffered that problem?

Nice one Mitch!!

Here..here..well done that man.

Cheers

acampbel
12-08-2003, 17:09
I think we are getting close ....

This came in today from my dealer :-

I have spoken to XXXX at Honda service & he has suggested that balancing the starter valves & adjusting the throttle position sensor to a base setting of .3 volts has cured all the stumbling problems.

Perhaps Mitch's cleaning of the TPS has effectively set the voltage levels closer to the ideal. In any case it is a line of investigation that I will pursue and report back on after my service next Thursday.


Cheers,

Low-Life

Calimori
12-08-2003, 22:05
Any one know how we can test the 'base setting of .3 volts'?
If this is something we can compare and adjust then we can spot the bikes with a problem and fix them.

Would others agree that all the sensors do is detect by changes in voltage? Hence one that is less sensitive, mixed with corrosion or just muck, it will not be reacting to situations properly.

Any problems I have had did not show up in the first 1k miles which tie in with gentle corrosion or muck.

Yours Excited.

testmonkeyuk
12-08-2003, 23:24
Spoke to my dealer today as I said I would (they still haven't heard anything from Dave Hancock).

Explained that Mitch's bike had been checked over /adjusted and he got the same results as me i.e. better but not right. Then told him what Mitch had done and results that he acheived and he sounded a little sceptical until I really pushed him re the throttle sensor when he admitted that it could be an issue. His main doubt was any corrosion as my bike is so new. However, armed with this new evidence I may be able to push the issue further.

He said they'd do the work to check this out but is still insistant that he wants the bike for a few days to check it all over. The stumbling block is that they still won't agree to give me a courtesy bike that I can keep overnight. I told him I don't care whether it was them or Honda or whoever who supplied the bike but I would need it overnight so sort it. He was going to try and chase down Dave Hancock and get back to me. I'll ring him tomorrow again and see if he'll just take the bike in Saturday, try the cure above and we'll see what happens. If it works fine, if not he can have the thing for as long as he wants provided they give me a CBCGCBRVFR999FSRRTiFxSYA03SP to play with in the meantime. :p

Jason Creasey
13-08-2003, 17:00
Graham (& anyone else!) :

Here's the throttle body. I've circled (what I'm 99% sure is) the TP Sensor.

JC

Nightflight VFR
13-08-2003, 23:21
You may be on the right track here. I had fitted my 2002 VTEC with a pair of O2 eliminators and when I started the bike the first time she backfired, only once and I believe this actually caused a flat spot to appear. I left the O2Es on for 2K miles and still felt it, never had one before the O2Es. Just completed the 8K servicing and removed the O2Es now the flat spot is gone, I've gone 200 miles without it.

Calimori
14-08-2003, 00:10
Thanks Jason. Now is WD40 good enough?

Where did you get that picture from, have you been stealing parts again? ;)

Jason Creasey
14-08-2003, 11:32
Originally posted by Calimori
Thanks Jason. Now is WD40 good enough?

Yes, I'm pretty sure it is Geoff. Personally though, I'd use a specific switch cleaner/lubricant spray first (available from places like Tandy or Radio Shack,) re-assemble the connection, then give it a final spray with WD40 to help limit water penetration.... But, I'm sure just WD40 would be fine.

Where did you get that picture from?

I took a screen-shot from the Honda '2002 New Model Info' CD-ROM (which includes the VTEC) that Honda UK gave when Brian & I visited them.

I will be starting a thread in service guides shortly that contains all the relevant pdf's & movie files from this disc. The files are quite large though & will take some time to upload (& write a summary of the file-contents so people know what they're getting BEFORE they start downloading!) so please bear with me. I've sent a copy of the CDROM to AlanSh who's kindly offered to duplicate it for other members should they need it. (People will need to send him an SAE (& so-on) to do this, but more on this later when I start the thread in Service Guides.)

All the best,

Jason

Grahamb
14-08-2003, 14:01
...and thanks from me as well Jason, and to Geoff for the gentle reminder about 'WD40' suitability.

Would the 'IAT' and 'bank control' sensors be easily recognisable in your opinion? I was just thinking that when I raise the tank to have a go at cleaning the 'TPS', I might as well do the 'IAT' at the same time to kill two birds with one stone. I guess the 'bank control' one could be tackled at another time due its location.


Cheers

Jason Creasey
14-08-2003, 19:36
hi guys,

More pics, with arrows this time ;)

JC

Jason Creasey
14-08-2003, 19:40
Here's the bank angle sensor.... I need to clarify with Mitch if this is what he actually cleaned though ( - he wasn't sure himself,) so hold off before you take your fairing to pieces!

Jason Creasey
14-08-2003, 19:43
99% sure this is the IAT sensor.....

Jason Creasey
14-08-2003, 19:46
...& here's a top-view of the throttle bodies from the rear of the bike, with everything you need to find marked... (but DON'T for gawd's sake touch the starter valves unless you have a set of vacuum gauges!)

Good luck!

JC

Grahamb
15-08-2003, 00:08
Thanks again Jason..:beer: ..those pictures are a REAL help. Just in the process of printing them off as I write this.

I need the practise in knowing how to get the nose fairing off anyway, after my dropping the bike last Sunday..:blush: Probably wont be this w/end, as I'm hoping to get a couple..or at least one...quote as to what it's going to cost to put right. Once that's done, I'll take it off and clean the sensor whilst it's being repaired.

Cheers

Jason Creasey
15-08-2003, 12:43
Here's a colour pic of the main Engine Management System components....

(Most letters can be figured out fairly easily, but if there's anything on there you want to know & can't work it out, just PM me.)

JC

nealeb
15-08-2003, 13:31
The idea that poor connections have been causing all these problems sounds too good to be true - surely it can't be that simple? Sounds horribly plausible, though.

Is there any correlation between people who keep bikes out of doors, or use them regularly in bad weather, and bikes showing symptoms? Mine goes out in the rain (usual commuter transport) but is garaged or in covered bike shed the rest of the time, and so far seems to be OK. I suspect that the majority of machines are used similarly and relatively few are outside all the time.

All the same, I am planning to fit a K&N sometime soon (partly for avoid air filter costs and partly to see if it fixes the not-too-serious low speed surging), and may well have a go at likely connectors with a can of switch cleaner while the tank is off just in case...

Jason Creasey
15-08-2003, 15:29
Should any sponsors be interested, I've started a thread (http://www.hondavfrclub.org/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17540) containing the files that some of these pic's were taken from.

JC

mitch
15-08-2003, 18:13
Hi chaps, been away for the week so am just catching up with every thing, the bank sensor can be got at without removing the fairing, on my there is a tail from the switch which then goes into a green jack plug, this was corroded, all other sensors detailed in jason's diagrams are correctly identified, I used contact cleaner on all of them regardless of their conditon.NOW HERES SOME NEWS.... I advised geo' whites of developments and they replied that they have already been advised by honda of a problem with one sensor / plug that should be checked during servicing ???? !!!
lost for words on that one !!
anyone got problems let me know, and how you get on
cheers
mitch

Alan Sh
15-08-2003, 21:53
Which one ?

mitch
16-08-2003, 18:30
They couldn't remember specifically ???!!

mitch

mitch
18-08-2003, 21:38
358 miles, bikes thown a tantrum twice.... so it still isn't perfect.....

mitch

Jason Creasey
18-08-2003, 23:30
shit...... :(

:bang: :h :dunno: :B (... & I don't even own a vtec....)

It's generally much better than before though, isn't it Mitch?

(At least we may be heading in the right direction....)

It'd be great if you could push George White's to call Honda again & find out (again!) which was the 'problem-sensor/connector' they mentioned ( - if you don't mind Mitch...)

Jason

Grahamb
19-08-2003, 10:26
Lifted the tank and disconnected the 'IAT' and 'TPS' sensors last night. No obvious signs of corrosion / oxidisation, but decided to give both sets of connectors a clean using WD40.

Must admit I didn't want to disturb the 'TPS', so unable to see up inside the male connector to guage the state of the contacts. Just used a brush to apply the WD40. Also took the opportunity of disconnecting the connectors held in the plastic sleeve that lies between (on mine) the frame and 'TPS' (approx). Again, no signs of corrosion, but gave them a clean. Oh, and also did the same exercise on the connector that attaches to the unit (don't know name) located on the offside, near front of the airbox. It also has vacuum tubes connected to it.

Rode the bike in to work this morning, but no difference that I could measure. Just to repeat, I don't suffer the problems that others have in the 0-4K operation, just the 'holding back' feeling after prolonged constant throttle openings in the 4-5K range.

I plan on going home via a slightly different route which includes approx. 4 miles of motorway to monitor results, providing traffic conditions allow me to sit at a steady 70-75mph for a while.

I did take a brief look at the 'Bank Angle Sensor', and I would imagine that to be the most likely candidate to have corrosion due to its position..more exposed to elements. I'll have a go at cleaning that when I come to take the nose cowl off to have the paintwork damage repaired. Obviously wont be able to report back until I get the fairing back from the repairers, so please bear with me.

Jason Creasey
19-08-2003, 13:25
Thanks Graham...

JC

Grahamb
19-08-2003, 13:58
Originally posted by Jason Creasey
Thanks Graham...

JC
No problem Jason. Just remembered that I also cleaned the connector on the 'MAP' sensor...thought I might as well have a go at all I could easily spot with tank lifted..:)

Again, no signs of corrosion / oxidisation.

evs1
19-08-2003, 16:42
well it had to happen going round a round about the bike just seemed to die then the loveley noise of fairing scraping followed with me sitting on my arese in the middle of the round about just watching my p&j just slidding away from me:( :mad:

Jason Creasey
19-08-2003, 16:46
Just had a long chat with Simon a Honda Customer Services ( - he has fairly extensive engineering knowledge of all the VFR models.) Here are some of his pointers:

• Any sensor in the fuel system could possibly cause running problems. (e.g the TP, IAT, map sensor, cam pulse generator & so on...)

• If the throttle-position sensor packs up, the bike can still 'limp home' using it's backup-system readings from things like the map sensor / engine speed sensors. But it will run like a pig.

• The fi warning fault detector doesn't check out the fuel pump, lines & pressure regulator, so these may be worth investigating. BUT:

• The fi warning system is fairly 'black & white' as it were (e.g. is sensor working, or not?... nothing in between,) so it's possible that if a sensor is only working at 80% efficiency (e.g. thru bad connections,) the fi system would probably still say it's 'working fine' even though there are running problems..

• Whilst he's not aware of any particular connector that Honda are definitely telling dealers about, he recommends cleaning the main coupling on the ECU, & checking that the connectors on the female side of the loom haven't opened up enough to create a poor connection.

• Be careful with some contact cleaners - they could affect plastics.

• Apply a dielectric grease to the connector to help reduce water penetration. (I didn't clarify if he meant inside or around the outside of the joint, although i expect he meant the former..)

• There IS a small running 'characteristic' around 1500 revs once the engine's above 89ºC... something possibly to do with the PAIR system opening & closing rapidly (1500revs is it's operation cut-in point or something like that) which makes it difficult to hold those particular revs. (I have to add though that I'd be amazed if any of you are trundling around at 1500rpm... my fi-X hates anything under 2000rpm...)

• They've found synch'ing the starter valves to cure many problems.... other than that, they have no hard data to suggest any other problems.


If I find out anything else I'll let you know. (Right now thought, I must do some work!)

JC

mitch
19-08-2003, 17:39
latest feedback - geo whites spoke to honda , discussed problem again no real sound advice, except speak to dave hancock and that perhaps myself and 'the instuctor' were suffering from operator error ??!! in fairness to geo whites they did counter this.. but what kind of statement is that, also suggested I look at the VFR site for a solution ?.
Don't know about everyone else but I've gone from Frustration to Desperation to Exasperation to Resignation that this ain't ever going to be sorted.
So what now ??? saw my old 750 for sale this week ?? good deals to be had on ZZR 12's but is this answer ? or are honda hoping we'll go away ???
keep you posted on developments with geo whites / honda

:B :bang: :h :violin: :rant: :mad: :dunno:

mitch

ps , jason waiting for confirmation on dodgy sensor from geo whites

Jason Creasey
19-08-2003, 18:03
> suggested I look at the VFR site for a solution

incredible!

> speak to dave hancock and that perhaps myself and 'the instuctor' were
> suffering from operator error ??!!

unf***ing-believeable!!

> jason waiting for confirmation on dodgy sensor from geo whites

Thanks Mitch. I get a distinct feeling that if this problem gets sorted, it'll be through our own perseverance & nobody elses....

JC

red rocket
19-08-2003, 20:24
Reckon you'll have to do what I did together get shot & go back to the latest 800 you can find .
This Dave Hancock guy seems a little elusive to say the least
I hear his name mentioned a lot but mainly by people waiting to here from him or trying to contact him.
:dunno: :dunno: :dunno:

Grahamb
20-08-2003, 12:00
Originally posted by Grahamb
.......I plan on going home via a slightly different route which includes approx. 4 miles of motorway to monitor results, providing traffic conditions allow me to sit at a steady 70-75mph for a while.

More disappointing news I'm afraid. The journey at a steady 70-75mph last night still resulted in the same 'holding back' feeling whenever I tried a small increase in throttle opening in order to maintain a constant speed.

Certainly no worse than before, but no improvement either..:(

Have to admit, I'm not that surprised, as the connectors I checked over didn't show any signs of corrosion. The bike is garaged and has spent VERY little time in wet weather conditions.

I'll still have a go at the 'Bank Control..or is it Angle..Sensor' when I take the fairing off. I'll also check the connectors on the main 'ECU' as suggested in an earlier post.

Oh well...onwards & upwards...

Like Mitch, I'm beginning to wonder if we have to resign ourselves to the fact that we might never get to the bottom of this...:dunno: I consider myself fortunate that I only have this 'niggling' problem at 4-5K....certainly none of the low speed ones that a number of you have.

If only the same advances had been made on the development of 'fuel injected' bikes as have been on today's modern cars!!! This thread most likely wouldn't exist.

Cheers

Jason Creasey
21-08-2003, 18:59
> speak to dave hancock and that perhaps myself and 'the instuctor' were
> suffering from operator error ??!!

I chatted to Dave today Mitch... He said he didn't say this :dunno:

I'm not going to post any 'hopeful' update until something concrete happens/arrives further to my conversation with Dave, but will of course let you know once anything does.

All the best,

JC

acampbel
22-08-2003, 02:19
Much, much better !!!!

My VTEC had its 6000km service yesterday, brought forward to 5200km because I was fed up with how it was running. Apart from the usual stuff which included an oil & filter change, they acted on Honda's advice and checked out the starter valves and the TPS.

RESULT - a 75% improvement

The shop said the starter valves were "a bit out" but the TPS base voltage was .6V rather than .3V. Now I don't know anything about how this is measured or adjusted, but a setting that is 100% over spec can't be healthy.

I have only had a quick trip home and back to work this morning but the throttle response is greatly improved and the engine far more willing to pull from low revs. I still get the feeling that the 4-5K fuel starvation is there, but its impact has been greatly diminished.

One factor that I wish to eliminate (in case it is masking the symptoms) is the idle speed. Before the service this was around 1050RPM (slightly low) but post service it is around 1350RPM (slightly high). I suspect this is simply because the started valve adjustment has led to a smoother engine. I would like to bring it down to the recommended 1200RPM, but my attempts this morning only resulted in sore fingers.

Can anyone suggest how to turn the rather awkward knob without burning your fingers against the engine casing?


Cheers,

Happy Low-Life

Blue Moon
22-08-2003, 09:56
I put my silver VTECH in for its 4000 service recently I have had only miner fuel complaints of which I told the Honda dealer.

When I got my bike back they said they could find no problems but had adjusted the tick over to 1400rpm.

I'm not convinced and will leave it awhile to decide I can’t ride my bike for moor than 10 mins at the moment due to a back problem so it may be a long while.

I have to say though I don’t know who suggested it smiffy I think but I went out and red lined my bike in all gears and it seems to have helped.

All the best Steve
:cool:

Grahamb
22-08-2003, 09:58
Originally posted by acampbel

Can anyone suggest how to turn the rather awkward knob without burning your fingers against the engine casing?


Cheers,

Happy Low-Life

...just a thought...but..

.......if you're careful, might be worth wrapping a couple of layers of rag around it and use a pair of pliers. Must admit I've only tried adjusting mine once, and although stiff, I did manage to turn with fingers only.

Cheers

Egg on Leggs
22-08-2003, 10:09
The problem with the tick over screw is that being a cable, all the flex is taken up in the available room. I used a set of arterial forceps but any long nosed pliers would do.

The Instructor
25-08-2003, 23:22
This far down the road and Honda are still not responding to our obvious problems. Suerely it would be in their interest to take one of these problem bikes and try it for themselves. If it means going back to Japan for the poeple who have the expertise to go through component by component.
Meanwhile I did let the dealer dispose of both of my VTECS shame really because they do look georgeous and the handling was first class.
Meanwhile I have gone back to the 750 FV 1200 miles but neglected. After a minor problem with the engine and some new paint and TLC she is now a stunner. This motor is so smooth and refined. If you have never tried one then do and see for yourselves just how the VFR should be.

Meanwhile best of luck in your quest?

Schtum
25-08-2003, 23:43
I suspect the the problem lies in Honda conducting customer feedback clinics.

Q: Which qualities would you like to see in the next generation VFR?

A: More sportiness.

A: More touriness (sic).

A: More character.

So Honda duly went off and made the V Tec more sporty, i.e under seat exhausts, sharper handling and dip in the torque curve before 7K rpm to create the illusion of a power band.

They re-wrote their publicity blurb to persuade the punters that in spite of this more sporty focus, the bike was also even more suited for touring.

But how to make the bike have more character.....? Having already gone part of the way and fitted the under seat exhausts, the next step was logical. So Honda duly followed Ducati's lead and built a motorcycle which breaks down a lot.

The inescapable conclusion is that the fuel injection glitches and the stalling aren't faults, they're a deliberately engineered Japanese interpretation of carattere. Of course being Japanese, there's nothing random or irregular about this sort of character. No, there's a cast iron guarantee that your V Tec will be unreliable Sir and if it's not, then it's one of the few that escaped the character quality control and your riding experience will be the poorer for it.

HTH

decanter
26-08-2003, 08:50
Originally posted by Schtum

"So Honda duly followed Ducati's lead and built a motorcycle that breaks down alot."

"Of course being japanese, there's nothing random or irregular about this sort of character."

:} :} :}

What you on Schtum.:D :D

Plato was right then :}

Gonzo
27-08-2003, 12:49
Mine is between 4000 & 5000. especially holding there through traffic. I burn the Amoco Premium fuel only and there has never been an inprovement. Hopefully Honda will face up and recall and fix so we don't have too. 03 with 3500 miles.:t

maxx_5
27-08-2003, 15:42
Guys,

How about other bikes with Vtec?
Does it have this problem?

Peter:bow:

Alan Sh
27-08-2003, 15:57
What other bikes with vtec ? This is the first one which is fuel injected (the only other one was a Japanese only 400cc Honda.)

maxx_5
27-08-2003, 16:23
Alan,

Opssss..... Sorry.
:bang:

Peter

mark_fire
13-09-2003, 17:57
:h

Further to my last posting, I have now put on 200 mls on my new vtec and i have on four occasions had the dreaded fuel problems as described by the other members here. Its really soured the pleasure of riding what i consider to be the greatest all rounder in the bike world. I will be going back to my dealer with a copy of this debate and proof of the amount of owners with the same problem. I hope there is a fix available. Can i assume that a K&N filter will iron out a lot of this problem or is there more to it. has anyone had a dealer (Honda) fix yet.


Keep up the good work guys & girls

Laters

Mark

mark_fire
13-09-2003, 18:03
If there's anyone in the london area with the dreaded fuelling problem and they have sourced a fix, i'd love to hear from them. Or alternatively we perhaps could meet for a beer and put the Honda world right for an hour.

Mark


PS. Wheres the best place to get a K&N filter from and is it easy to fit, cheers.

Calimori
14-09-2003, 17:05
I ordered my K&N from the local garage and fitted it myself. Left one of the seals at first but once that was sorted I would say it is very easy to fit.
Unbolt front of tank, get friend to hold it up (best to not have just filled up;) ).
Undo 6 or 8 screws on the top of the filter box. Disconnect vacuum hose.
Remove old filter and the seals.
Fit new filter, it can only go in one way if I remember correctly.
Put the vacuum hose back on, put the screws back in, bolt the tank back on, go for a ride.

They are worth it as you get more miles per filter so you do not get charged for replacing it at every service.

pdevlin
19-09-2003, 18:05
We talked to our Honda dealer about this a while ago and he said he'd do some research on it. Yesterday my husband went in to pick up some oil filters. The dealership owner was busy helping someone else, but he did tell my husband just before he left that he heard back from Honda and they did acknowledge that there is a problem but told the dealers not to try to fix it yet as they don't know for sure what's causing it and they are researching it. That's all he had time to tell him, but hopefully it's a good sign.

Grahamb
19-09-2003, 21:34
Originally posted by pdevlin
......but he did tell my husband just before he left that he heard back from Honda and they did acknowledge that there is a problem but told the dealers not to try to fix it yet as they don't know for sure what's causing it and they are researching it. .

Thanks for letting us know.

Sounds like Honda are prepared to a bit more 'up front' with our cousins in the States. Don't suppose it could be anything to do the size of the market over there...could it..;)

Cheers

mc4
19-09-2003, 22:41
Guys, after all I read in this forum I have a question for all of you that have already a experience with the VTEC:

I only use a motorcycle in town. I want to go everyday to work by moto and after a CBR 1000 and a VFR 800 FI (98 - sold ) I have afraid to do what I intend to - buy a new VTEC.

I only use the moto in low rpm's, from idle to 4000 / 5000. From one semaphore to the next one and if with my old 800 I get low torque at low rpm I think that with this new VTEC with all the fuelling problems I must expect a worse motor.

What do you think ? Maybe I'll do better buying a CB1300 ? Lot of torque at all rpm's ?

Thanks for any advice.

Mike :h

Beast
20-09-2003, 07:20
Well Mike (mc4) you have to ask yourself if you need a Sports Tourer to run around town on (not exactly what it was designed for)

If you must though?, then I would buy a VFR 750 FV in your case.

Brian

jonno
20-09-2003, 11:16
Mike,

I took my Vtec in for a service this week, and the loaner was a demo CB1300. I rode it 15 miles into the centre of London (and back after work).
What a gas!
If you want a low rev torque buster for round town - the CB1300 is the dogs b**lks!

John

ianseath
20-09-2003, 11:38
I have fitted the following on my V-Tec:-
o2 eliminators
K & N filter
Power Commander
Remus end cans

The power commander was fitted and expertly set up by Swona in Edinburgh.
The bike is now running perfectly with no hitches.
Alright, I shouldn't have had to go to these extremes but it was worth it!

Grahamb
29-09-2003, 13:27
Bike went in for its 8000 mile service last Monday. Full marks to Abingdon M'cycles for a good professional job. Just the usual checks + oil & filter changes required, but I did ask that they check the 'Starter Valve Synchronisation' in view of the fuelling problems that I've experienced. Total cost was £100 on the nose.

In the few journeys I done since then...one long one of some 200 miles yesterday, I do get the feeling that things have improved, but not been cured. The 'starvation' feeling at constant throttle opening in 4-5k area is certainly not as bad.

I was speaking to one of the guys - Stuart - at Abingdon about it, and he said that a few owners had complained of problems along the same lines with their 'Vtecs', but Honda wont admit to there being any. If they did..it would most likely lead to a recall of all 'Vtecs' to have it fixed...which they obviously don't want to do.

Stuart did advise that the best course of action - in light of Honda's inaction - was to fit a 'PC' + 'O2' Eliminators + 'K&N'. So..looks as though I might..VERY reluctantly..be forced down that route if I want the fuelling sorted once and for all.

I already have the eliminators, and will probably be looking at fitting a 'K&N' in the near future as I head towards 12000 miles where it's normally replaced. Need to start saving the pennies for the 'PC' now!

Whilst the bike was being serviced, I was given a 600 CBR 'F' for the day. Needless to say, I spent a few hours out on it as the weather was good. Impressive bike. I can see why they keep naming it as one of the best 'all rounders' in the biking press. Lovely handling bike. Mind you, when I got back on the 'VFR', it made me apprciate what a brilliant bike it is. So relaxed, smooth. Nope..wouldn't want to swap.

Cheers

nealeb
29-09-2003, 13:37
Just the K&N has almost but not quite removed the low-speed surging, which was never too bad anyway, and sitting at the 4-5K mark in traffic on the M3 this morning, I did not notice any particular hesitation (and I was looking for it). So, my vote is for K&N if the VTEC was not too bad to start with. About to go for 8K service, so be interesting to see what it's like when it comes back.

Grahamb
29-09-2003, 14:14
Originally posted by nealeb
Just the K&N has almost but not quite removed the low-speed surging, which was never too bad anyway, and sitting at the 4-5K mark in traffic on the M3 this morning, I did not notice any particular hesitation (and I was looking for it). So, my vote is for K&N if the VTEC was not too bad to start with. About to go for 8K service, so be interesting to see what it's like when it comes back.

Cheers Brian..that's just the sort of news I wanted to hear..:D Much rather just have to fork out for a 'K&N' without the addition of a 'PC'.

Did you get your 'K&N' fitted..or do it yourself? If the latter, just wondered if you got it from 'PDQ' at Slough..or somewhere nearer to here (Basingsoke/ Reading)?

Cheers

Filterama
29-09-2003, 15:14
Glad to know I'm not the only one!

I've only had the fuel problem 4 times in 12,000 miles, most recently last week 3 miles after it's 12k service. 4,500rpm pulling away from lights gently (new pads 'n all that), total loss of power for a split second, pulled clutch in - but not fast enough - and almost headbutted the dash. Whats the easiest way to cure this rare but iffy problem?

Thanx all.:bow:

nealeb
01-10-2003, 01:28
Originally posted by Grahamb
Did you get your 'K&N' fitted..or do it yourself? If the latter, just wondered if you got it from 'PDQ' at Slough..or somewhere nearer to here (Basingsoke/ Reading)?

Cheers

Came from the recommended "GreenVFR spares by post" service. Saved me looking for one, anyway, and I wanted some more fairing clips anyway!

Fitted it myself, took around 45 mins, but only because it was the first time I had lifted the tank and did not know what I would find. Used the VFR manual pages downloaded from the members' section. I posted a description of the process but then was told that there is a fully-illustrated version somewhere on the site. Only problem area would have been the over-tight tank bolts which yielded to a 1/4 drive socket on the end of an extension, and probably nothing else would have got in there.

Gabor
08-10-2003, 10:34
Wow What a difference!!!!!:yo:
I have just connected up my o2 eliminators and my bike is born again! Gone are the snatchy irritating tendancies when going at low speed or maintaining a constant throttle position (cruise)
She is smooth as and sounds better! This also got rid of the 5-6k hiccup on the way to vtec, basically because the mixture is rich enough.
BTW my mechanic said my vtec o2 was the worst he had seen (sample size 12) but now is the best.

watch out!:beer:

acampbel
09-10-2003, 01:37
Gabor,

Are the O2 eliminators the only mod to the bike? No K&N, PCIII, etc?

Did your mechanic check the starter valves and Throttle Position Sensor (TPS)? Where do you have the bike serviced?

So many questions due to so few answers from Honda .....


Cheers,

Low-Life

Gabor
09-10-2003, 02:11
Low Life,
I get the bike serviced by Lloyd Penn in Artarmon, he did check the throttle position sensors, but other than that the o2 eliminators are all that there is. As i understand it, all they do is send the right number to the efi to get rid of the light on the dash. You can test the effect by just disengaging the sensors first, as per Plumblines directions much earlier in this thread.

cheers
Gabor

acampbel
09-10-2003, 03:00
Gabor,

Where did you get the eliminators from and how much were they?

I have been a bit reluctant to go with these or even experiment with simply detaching the sensors. Apart from the FI light I am not entirely sure whether there is a difference between having or not having the eliminators.

ISTR someone explaining how to make your own eliminators out of a resistor, which apparently satisfies the ECU that something is there, but what signal does this send to the ECU? Does it read an open circuit, eliminators, DIY as all being a null input and therefore leaving the mixture at the "standard" setting? Or will it interpret some setups as being constantly rich or constantly lean and then tweak the mixture in the opposite direction?

I hope one of the gurus is still watching ....

Cheers,

Low-Life

Gabor
09-10-2003, 03:44
Too much worry :dunno:
'just do it!'

Cerco (Serco, Sirco Circo) in Queensland - not sure about the spelling
around $32 each - you need two of them

-=[BAD]=-Dynamo
25-10-2003, 18:32
just got round to disconnecting exhaust oxygen sensors today and WOW, my 03 vtec is born again.Gone is the low speed snatch and the constant low revs miss or hunt as i would call it


1 happy bunny no thanks to the local honda dealer who said there was nought wrong although the nice mechanic showed me how to disconnect the sensors after i pointed them to the forum

where can i get the o2 eliminators in scotland or by mail in the uk

something i still do have is the hesitation just as the vtec valves kick in. it kind of warns u its about to kick in but i think it makes the transition more noticable compared to the bike i test drove

makes me think theres something else that is causing these problems and the o2 eliminators r just helping

when fuel injection first appeared on ford escorts my parents had a similar problem and in the end ford redesigned the electronic chip that managed the fuel injection

Gabor
29-10-2003, 08:12
Okay,
i have undone the O2 sensors and the bike is much better but still some niggling problems around 4-5k.

Has Honda owned up to this problem anywhere in the world?

Who do you suggest i talk to about it (specific name or contact):mad:

acampbel
29-10-2003, 15:51
Gabor,

After my recent service (which included TPS and Starter Valve adjustment) the bike initially felt a lot better but now is as bad as ever. I received one of those follow up letters inviting comment, so I gave the manager at Sydney City Motorcycles a call and voiced my displeasure to him. He then gave me a contact at Honda (Greg Snart) who I emailed as politely as I could, giving him details of my bike's history and including links to a couple of threads on this forum.

Initially he seemed to ignore me but just today I received an email apologising for the delay and asked me to book the bike in to the dealer so that Honda could help them diagnose the problem. Apart from a general check of all the adjustable bits (TPS, Starter Valves, Cams, clearances, etc.) he seemed to think that upgrading to the '03 ECU might help. ISTR that has been tried already but if they want to give it a go then who am I to stop them.

I will hopefully book the bike in next week and report back with the results, but in the meantime you could try emailing Greg Snart (gsnart@hondampe.com.au)

He seems genuinely interested in helping and the more people who raise this as an issue the better, as I don't think Honda have any idea how widespread this problem is.


Cheers,

Low-Life

Bumpkin
29-10-2003, 16:49
Originally posted by -=[BAD]=-Dynamo
just got round to disconnecting exhaust oxygen sensors today and WOW, my 03 vtec is born again.

....[snip]

something i still do have is the hesitation just as the vtec valves kick in. it kind of warns u its about to kick in but i think it makes the transition more noticable compared to the bike i test drove

May have asked you this before but is it a true 03, i.e. no light switch or a late registered 02? Your symptoms sound like my old 02 and very unlike the 03 I've test ridden (pick it up Sat). From my enquiries it appears that they have changed the Fi mapping on the 03 models (hearsay though).

Just courious....

-=[BAD]=-Dynamo
29-10-2003, 23:06
yep definately an 03 model. no light switch and a flat battery when working on it too long with ignition on[i have a datatool alarm and if the alarm is on but the movement sensor is off u still cant take seat off or on without the alarm going off.

A big hug and a thnx to the idiot who thought that one up

:m

Gavin S
30-10-2003, 01:36
I have an 03 model and it runs great non of the problems that others have mentioned ,I did have a bit of snatching at very low revs in low gears but that was the way i was using the throttle
after using carb model bikes for26yrs the FI ones do respond different as you donot have 4float bowls full of petrol to use up ,when you shut off on FI ones thats it fuel stops .

Bumpkin
30-10-2003, 10:20
Originally posted by -=[BAD]=-Dynamo
A big hug and a thnx to the idiot who thought that one up
Hate the lack of light switch, think I'll be thumbing that space for a few months to come with the new bike. Been thinking, will the 02 switch cluster plug into the loom and give switched lights? Though I'm pretty sure that Honda will have done a through job and made the connection within the loom rather than the connector, sub loom or switch cluster.

One of the first experiments I'll be doing is splitting the connector to see if the lights go out....

mark_fire
30-10-2003, 16:57
Hi all,

After reading this forum for a while and trying to suss out the probs with my bike, i decided to do the right thing and get some O2 eliminators and a power commander fitted (already running the K&N filter). Well would you believe it a new bike is born.... gone has the low revs snatchiness, gone the real violent 7k rev lurch when the other valves kick in and gone the 4k lack of fuel prob on long journeys!!! Next step is to get a custom map done on the bike and i'm a happy chappy!!.

So a big thumbs up to you guys and a real downer on the people at Honda.. i expected better!!!

kind regards

Mark

joseph a
08-11-2003, 23:55
gaucho
what is the cost of the elimiators, and do you have a contact address for dynojet,
joe

-=[BAD]=-Dynamo
20-11-2003, 00:54
my 03 bike has the hesitation

i pulled my dealer up about it and to cut a long story short their going to balance the throttle bodies tommorrow thursday

i know someone has had this done before but they can try

they said that doing this can reduce the snatch on the throttle

to me that is what is happening on my bike. when i hold it at steady revs and hit a bump my hand is moved ever so little and the bike stutters. going accross cobbles in edinburgh is akin to riding a mountain bike down a mountain fast as the stutter is eccentuated

ive got my fingers crossed

p.s.i was told by my dealer that replacing the o2 sensors could invalidate the warrenty, so im gonna bug them till its fixed. also it could be an offence to replace them as u r -fiddling with global emmision laws

Bumpkin
20-11-2003, 01:18
Originally posted by -=[BAD]=-Dynamo
my 03 bike has the hesitation

i pulled my dealer up about it and to cut a long story short their going to balance the throttle bodies tommorrow thursday
Will be interested to hear about the result.

Grahamb
20-11-2003, 01:39
Originally posted by -=[BAD]=-Dynamo
my 03 bike has the hesitation

i pulled my dealer up about it and to cut a long story short their going to balance the throttle bodies tommorrow thursday

i know someone has had this done before but they can try

they said that doing this can reduce the snatch on the throttle

to me that is what is happening on my bike. when i hold it at steady revs and hit a bump my hand is moved ever so little and the bike stutters. going accross cobbles in edinburgh is akin to riding a mountain bike down a mountain fast as the stutter is eccentuated

Although I'm loathe to draw any final conclusions on the matter..tempting fate..;) ..I have to admit that my throttle response is much improved after I had the 'starter valve synchronisation' checked/adjusted on my '02 Vtec at its 8000 mile service this September gone. I also fitted a 'K&N' filter early October time, and the 'starvation' symptoms that I used to get at a constant throttle in and around the 4-5K range is much improved..if not cured. However, I always felt the problems were worse the higher the ambient temperature and thus the engine temperature, so I'm waiting for next year's summer to see if the improvements are maintained.

Cheers

acampbel
20-11-2003, 15:24
The Monday before the Snowy Ride I dropped the bike into my dealer so that they and Honda could sort it out. I rang Monday arvo and they said they were waiting for a special tool from Honda. On Thursday they were still waiting for said tool and I told them to put the bike back together as I had some serious riding to do that weekend.

Now leaving aside the complete waste of my time .... what tool for the VTEC would the dealer not have? I believe it has to do with Starter Valve synchronisation, but they charged me for that last time without having the wonder tool.

Maybe Honda are just sending the '03 CPU ....


Cheers,

Low-Life

-=[BAD]=-Dynamo
20-11-2003, 22:06
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

I think the above smiles say it all, the bike is ten times better.

only got a short run tonight as i had to go back to work but wow!!! what a difference.

dont know if its perfect but the bike now takes a corner without diving mid corner. it was as if the front shocks were soft. even the slow corner at the bottom of my street where i felt as if the shocks were compressing is as smooth as can be.

basically the dealer balanced the throttle bodies which has de-sensitised the throttle, which when hitting a bump or even tensing the right arm muscles caused the bike to lurch

I dont even know if its the same problem as first posted here but removing the o2 sensors sorted the problem aswell but i wanted honda to sort it for me having only 1000 miles on the clock.

I had to contact honda customer service to get go ahead for the job as honda told the dealer it is not part of the warranty. But i was not standing for that. The dealer said it turned out to be an easy job as this was his first one and would probably charge less than 50 pounds for someone who wanted it done outside warranty.

lastly what is starter valve syncronisation. is this the same thing as balancing the throttle bodies as the dealer spoke about valves that were adjusted to harmonise the vacuum behind the throttles

fingers crossed:yo:

Jason Creasey
21-11-2003, 00:30
Hiya Dynamo,

Throttle bodies are not adjustable on the VFR800 or VTEC. (They're pre-set at the factory & mustn't be touched.) When anyone refers to adjusting the throttle bodies on the VFR, they actually mean the 'starter valves' (whether they know it or not...)

I can't remember the complete technical description I'm afraid, but the starter valves adjust the flow of fuel to the throttle bodies at one stage or another, & a mismatch seems to cause terrible running problems on the vtec compared to the previous VFR, which only really exhibited a lumpy tickover & an increase in fuel consumption ISTR...

All the best,

Jason

-=[BAD]=-Dynamo
21-11-2003, 00:44
cheers m8

ur last comment was "increased fuel consumption"

I had not got round to checking it but I reckoned my viffer was using excesive fuel so hopefully what they done sorts that, now that i seem to have more than 2 positions on the throttle[open and shut]

-=[BAD]=-Dynamo
03-12-2003, 21:26
well scrub my earlier good news on balancing sorting my stutter

was out tonight went to pass a car on a dual carriageway got to 8000 revs and bang !!! all power cut, i was sent carreering into screen, then normal operation resumed until i tried to gas it again

as before at 8000 revs it done it again so i tried once more and it did it again

my stutter has resumed also and is worse in places than before. If i sit at 70 in 5th the it feels like i am moving the throttle up and down with constant engine braking and acceleration

Im getting really naffed off with this bike and intend leaving it with dealer until he sorts it or exchanges it

Jason Creasey
03-12-2003, 22:57
Hi Dynamo,

I'm sorry to hear this, but I have to say that you're not the first to be happy with the initial results & then everything to go pear-shaped: have a read of the nightmare that Mitch went thru to see what I mean. He & I tried at great lengths to sort out the problem, both with his local dealer AND Honda UK .... In the end he (understandably) gave up & traded the VTEC in for another make of bike as the dealer admitted a rather embarassing defeat.

Good luck m8. Sorry but I'm afraid I don't hold out much hope for any dealer to sort this one out: I think only Honda Japan will eventually find out what the problem is, & even then I doubt they'll tell anyone because the last thing they'd want is a mass-recall....

However, ask your dealer to check the base-voltage of your throttle position sensor. I remember this is a possible problem, but I'm afraid you'll have to read back through this thread to find out what Honda are recommending to re-adjust this to.. (Hopefully the dealer will know if you're lucky.)

All the best,

Jason

plumbline
04-12-2003, 00:05
only because I don't think this an easy one to trace .... my research comes up with three possible options :

1. Poor earth - particularly if you have an alarm or imobiliser fitted with additional earth clamps ...... all points MUST be grounded to the frame in a secure and clean fashion.

2. As mentioned before faulty Fi sensor ... common suspects are :

throttle position sensor
o2 sensors
mass flowmeter
temp sensor

3. EC system faulty:

Pair system filter blockage
Flapper valve faulty
Closed loop tuning (O2 sensors) faulty

synching the starter valves will not affect the operating problem you describe.

A. Disconnect the O2 sensors and see if the problem persists ..... if not, buy an eliminator kit or get Mr H to replace them

B. Disconnect the flapper valve ... if problem persists reconnect .... if not get Mr H to replace the solenoid

C. Check ALL electrical system earths ... particularly those associated with alarm or imobiliser circuits.


as mentioned before ... many times ...... the normal rules of carburetted bike do not apply to the Honda Fi system ...... the system is not MECHANICAL but ELECTRICAL so look here for your problems as this is where most (but admittidly not all) occur.

Hope this helps ...... drop me a pm if you need anything further ....


cheers


Robb

G Couperthwaite
04-12-2003, 10:26
I too have had problems with my early 2002 model
stalling on blipping the throttle during gear changing. This seems to occur only when the motor is still cold. Once normal operating temperature is reached the problem dissapears. I have had this happen leaving me stranded in the middle of an intersection with traffic bearing down on me. After 10 000 km and two services at 1000 km and 6 000km the problem has not been solved. Adjusting the idle speed has not helped.

Will be fitting a Power Commander and having a Dynotune soon and hopefully this will result in a cure.

red rocket
05-12-2003, 00:37
G Couperthwaite I had two v-tecs did exactly this without blipping the throttle but just changing gear when partly cold.
One was 2002 the next 2003 both brand new in the end honda dealer gave me my money back went back to a late pre v-tec happy bunny again now .

Alan Sh
24-12-2003, 18:22
Had a chat with one of the service people at Robinsons of Rochdale. He said they had 2 early 2002 vtecs in with problems. Swapped them for 2003 ECU's and the problems went away. He is convinced that the ECU's had been reprogrammed sometime in 2002. Mine is a June 2002 model and doesn't have any problems.

-=[BAD]=-Dynamo
24-12-2003, 23:54
hi

update to my saga

two wheels have had my bike 2 weeks and cant find anything wrong

they do admit it runs better without the o2 sensors but they tried another bike and said it was the same. Trouble is i wont accept that. i spoke to honda and the guy there dave [very nice man]has told two wheels to replace the o2 sensors and see what happens

dave
has looked into the cutting out problem and thinks along
thesame lines as plumlines in that the alarm could cause the trouble but that has all been tested now with no answer. So honda r now going to fit a new ecu [costly] and see what happens

i have got my fingers crossed as although my wifes thundercat is available for my biking fix it just isnt a viffer. I have scoured the bike mags incase i may just have to look at another bike but this is the bike i wanted and spent my hard earned cash on. I would just like it to run correctly like my old gsx600f did. slow she was and ponderous but she did everything precisely and never gave me any heart stopping moments like this bike has

MarkJHarris
28-12-2003, 19:52
And all this is what worries me.

I'm after a VTEC, BUT, am I likely to find that those bikes in dealers for sale secondhand are there BECAUSE they have this problem and have been traded?

Those bikes after the hidden 'fix' on the line by Honda might be OK, but if so, would they be in a dealers for sale?

I know some will, but the odds?

I'm not too happy to know the only way to ensure a good'un is to buy a new'un.

And being on the rock means I don't get to test ride bikes at more than one Honda dealer!

Hohum.

red rocket
28-12-2003, 21:26
I'm not too happy to know the only way to ensure a good'un is to buy a new'un.

Please do not buy on that assumption .

Dont like to keep reminding you guys but I had 2 brand new ones one being 2002 & one being 2003 they both continually played up I believe 800 miles on the first & nearly £2000 spent on it by my dealer with no joy & 500 on the second one in the end i was given a full refund & managed to find a late 2001 pre v-tec with 6.000 miles which has been faultless & completed two thrashings around france I still take it to the original dealer for servicing so dont think they were at fault
:beer: :beer: :beer:

red rocket
28-12-2003, 21:39
So honda r now going to fit a new ecu

just read this earlier thread on my first v-tec 2002 they tried fitting a 2003 ECU & it didnt make a shits worth of difference along with all injectors & all sensors tried another fuel tank with another fuel pump
Honda should have all this on their data base as they found fitting a new ecu had sorted one out in scotland
:beer: :beer:

-=[BAD]=-Dynamo
28-12-2003, 23:54
well mark i certainally would not by a second hand vtec for all the money in china.

the owner of my daelership has since tested another vtec that was in for service and he says it was worse than mine. get that!

and the owner thought it ran great. get that!

now they may all play up but only some of us can notice it. maybe because of the way we drive said bikes. my dealer said it might be a quirk of the vtec and i would have to put up with it [I think not] but talking to honda direct they have decided to try by changing the ecu

when u test drive a bike try sitting in 4th or 5th at 70mph and see if it surges up and down

now at least one guy here has posted that his dealership took back his 2 bikes. how many more people have done this and where are these bikes. Yep sitting in dealerships waiting for some guy to buy them

At this time i would not recommend anyone buys a second hand vtec

Calimori
29-12-2003, 16:10
I believe that experience, good or bad, should be freely shared on this site. That way we can learn and be far more informed than just doing this biking lark on our own.

Now to my count we have had about four riders who wish they had never traded in their 800's and a few who have bought a Vtec as the first VFR and hated it. Only one who has since returned to the 800.
We are still seeing more people exchange an 800 for the vtec and love it. We also know of enough people who have sold their vtecs for genuine reasons and people who have bought secondhand an excellent bike. Actually I can't think of anyone who has bought secondhand and been disappointed.

As with anything of this sort of value, try before you buy.

Personally the area of the rev range that bothered me was 4-5k, when I cruised at about 30MPH, can only be described as a glitch. I fitted a PCIII, had a map made up (at no cost) and the problems all went away. I was not happy with my fuel consumption though so removed it and have since had the start valves balanced. Honda paid for the work and I am very happy with the result. As I have the PCIII I will have the map redone and possibly only for the area in question. All of this has cost me less than a new exhaust end can.

-=[BAD]=-Dynamo
03-01-2004, 01:00
Out of interest how many of the guys that have had fuelling problems have got an alarm fitted to their bike

And what type

red rocket
03-01-2004, 12:31
Well I didnt have an alarm .
But mine ran perfectly apart from the cutting out leaving you freewheeling between gear changes .This was always after being stood for say an hour or when about half a mile up the road from cold and pulling from either a roundabout or junction etc . Both were identical the only way around it was to either keep the revs up or make rapid gear changes but dont always want to ride like that and if following a car you can hardly cane its ass now can ya .
Also regarding buying s/hand the next owner phoned & asked me if I had any problems as it kept cutting out so that was again taken back by the dealer dont know where it is now .I suppose best to buy from a dealer you can trust even if not able to rectify the problem .
The strange thing is it doessn't matter what dealer you visit not one will admit to having had trouble with the bloody v-tec.

I do wonder as stated in an earlier thread that VFR sales are way down has any thing to do with the bad word going round

Not I hasten to add by the bad press who unfortunately are all so far up Mr. Hondas ass for obvious reasons not to criticise

:beer: :beer: :beer: Ian

-=[BAD]=-Dynamo
31-01-2004, 16:42
Wel the saga goes on

I get my bike back after almost a month in the dealer and a new ecu etc and what does the bike do first time out

Yep cuts out at high revs and tries to throw me through screen

Also the stutter/surge is as bad as ever

I phone honda who say my gripe is with the dealer as the selling agent and my next step is to reject the bike in writing

I did this last sunday and despite phoning twice this week I still dont know what is happening.

They say they cant get bike to display the symptoms i have related to them and that the stutter is the same on all vtec's

Now when i returned home my neighbor/biker/police inspector was there and i treid revving bike at and a standstill to see what happens

When the revs reached 10000 rpm the bike cut-out and fell to 6000rpm then restarted and rose to 10000revs approx and cut=out again. now i can do it in my drive why cant a dealer get it to do this. For the record the last time i had this problem it cut out at 8000rpm while as was exiting a roundabout on a dual carriageway. SCARY!!!

To say im getting naffed off with my dealer and honda is putting it politely. I have had nothing but greif with this bike since i bought it in september. This was to be my dream bike that i had heard so many good things about but has now turned into a nightmare

Jason Creasey
31-01-2004, 19:22
Really sorry to hear about all this Dynamo....

> They say they cant get bike to display the symptoms i have related to them
> and that the stutter is the same on all vtec's
>
> Now when i returned home my neighbor/biker/police inspector was there
> and i treid revving bike at and a standstill to see what happens
>
> When the revs reached 10000 rpm the bike cut-out and fell to 6000rpm
> then restarted and rose to 10000revs approx and cut=out again. now i can
> do it in my drive why cant a dealer get it to do this.

Have you gone to the dealers & done this last test in front of them? If not, it's definitely worth doing now you've discovered this, assuming the fault is repeatable of course....

I also strongly suggest you write a letter of complaint to Mark Davies (head of motorcycles) @ Honda UK & send it recorded delivery. I plan to do this very soon on behalf of the club as a whole, because Dave Hancock's promises of x, y & z have never materialised, & Honda UK are (IMO) keeping quiet in the hope that a) we go away, & b) that they're not faced with a mass-recall....

Do let us know what happens at the dealers, & thanks for keeping us informed... it only strengthens our battle to make Honda (UK or Japan) do something about the problem they're (publicly) ignoring.

All the best,

Jason

red rocket
31-01-2004, 20:13
Tell them you want ya bloody money back I did I had two new ones from the crate 2002 & 2003 both crap told them I shouldnt have to put up with it they gave me full refund with very little argument .Found a late pre vtec happy again now
good luck

-=[BAD]=-Dynamo
31-01-2004, 23:56
Jason: dealer says he has done this but nothing has happened

He is away monday but back tuesday

If he has no good news then i will do as u say and try it at there place. It does not happen everytime but it dont half wake u up when it does.

Do u have an address for the guy at honda m8, because i get the distinct feeling that im gonna need it.In fact i probably will just bring him up to speed anyway and let him know the poor service i am getting from his representatives.

Jason Creasey
01-02-2004, 14:33
Mark Davies
Honda (UK) Motorcycles
470 London Road
Slough
Berkshire
SL3 8QY

Don't bother phoning because you won't get past his P.A. Send a letter, & post it recorded delivery so Mr. Davies can't say he didn't receive it.

Good luck,

Jason

-=[BAD]=-Dynamo
01-02-2004, 16:06
thnx for the info jason

letter is ready for posting tommorrow by special delivery so he should get it tuesday by 12 noon

I will post any updates

Golden Route
01-02-2004, 18:22
Hello everyone!

This is my first post at the forum. My bikes over the years are
1976 a second hand 1971 modell Kawasaki 350 S2 Tripple
1986 a second hand 1985 modell Yamaha RD 350 YPVS
1997 a first hand 1996 modell Honda VFR750
(bike was Ok but dealer could not deliver accessories as promized,
that spoiled my vacation plans, so)
1998 my VFR750 upgraded to VFR800FI at dealers expense.
2003 upgrade to to a first hand 2002 VFR800 Vtec.

Here is my favorite vacation route: http://home.c2i.net/oddjohan/trollstigen/
and more here: http://www.mjelvacamping.no/norsk/n_golden.htm
and here: http://www.romsdalsalpene.com/linkgoldenroute.html

From a technical point of view I found this page of interest: http://www.hondata.com/
Okey those guys have their interest in cars but they experience similar problems and
they have gained experience over many years now.



Snatchy throttle response at low revs:
Well, have riding the hairpin bends at the golden route both my VFR800FI and
the VFR Vtec has shown some annoying throttle response behaviour.
Both bikes are very sensitive and a steady throttle hand is required.
When I fetched my Vtec I'v immediately got the feeling that throttle linkage was
different, significant less twist at the handlebar to go from idle to full throttle.
Have someone done a Vtec to VFR800FI head to head throttle linkage comparison?
Could a change in throttle linkage to some degree explain why the VFR800FI riders
get along while the Vtec riders complains?
My Vtec is far supperior to the VFR800FI I had in one aspect, the engine
does not stalls near as easily.

For idle tuning and TPS adjustment, hope you find this link useful:
http://www.hondata.com/techidle.html



Hesitation at part throttle and middle revs:
Yes I have noticed that too.
A part throttle tuning problem is described here:
http://www.hondata.com/techpartthrottle.html
One issue of concern here is that the Vtec does not have knocksensors
(please correct me if I am wrong here but I have not found any data
supporting that the Vtec has knocksensors) and this is a shame.
Mr Honda should have put the knocksensors in and that prior to add the Vtec.
Now engine tuning has to be done with high priority to avoid ignition advance
and/or lean fuel mixture otherwise the engine go "ping" and will soon be dammaged.
Add to this that according to my owner's manual the engine will run on 91 octane fuel
with a compression ratio of 11.6:1, now the tuning has to be very conservative indeed.
I belive that having the ECU reprogrammed for 98 octane fuel would give
much more preferable engine characteristics.
Note that the CBR 1100 XX Blackbird has knocksensors. I found some Blackbird
dynographs on the net and they looked great, good torque at middle revs.



Abrupt VTEC engagement:
Yes that too, I don't enjoy the way the Vtec kicks in.
Preferably I would like to have more torque at mid revs and a smooth Vtec engagement.
With a max torque specified at 8750 revs using all four valves the engine has to be starved
at 6800 revs and two valves.


My wish list:
Smooth throttle engagement at low revs.
Knocksensors and a ECU programmed to fully utilise 98 octane fuel.
VTEC reprogrammed to revs where two to four valve engagement is seamless.

And for anyone having interest in these issues please explore the other links at:
http://www.hondata.com/tech.html
After all I am a lucky guy so far, no severe problems, just some annoying behaviours.

Jason Creasey
01-02-2004, 20:31
Hi Golden Route :)

Welcome to the club, & thanks for the links... some very interesting info there!

All the best,

Jason

acampbel
02-02-2004, 05:26
Originally posted by Golden Route
... My wish list:
Smooth throttle engagement at low revs.
Knocksensors and a ECU programmed to fully utilise 98 octane fuel.
VTEC reprogrammed to revs where two to four valve engagement is seamless. ...

Many thanks for all the good info and some belated observations of my own.

I have had the usual probs with my VTEC and have had the dealer adjust the Starter Valves and TPS at 5,000km. This improved but did not eliminate the "fuelling" problem, and did nothing for my starting problems (took 2-3 goes everytime and would struggle on 3 cylinders until it started to warm up) or the VTEC transition point ... which was more of a lurch.

At around 9,000km they took it in for a full workover and kept it for a week. They had to order a special tool from Honda, by which I surmised that they needed the pin-stopping stuff to do the valves, and then they had to wait a couple of days for more parts, which I assume meant that some shims needed replacing.

So for the grand total of $0 I had the 16,000mi (24,000km) service done for nix. Result :- starting problems gone and the VTEC transition is very smooth, so that unless you are giving it laldy the only change is the exhast note. But .... the fuelling problems are still there.


I am going to try one more time at the 12,000km service but I doubt whether Honda will replace or reprogramme the ECU for nothing. I have purchased a K&N filter and will put it on after the service to see if that improves the temperamental behaviour under 5,000RPM. After that the only solution I can see is a PCIII or just never operate the bike at part throttle under 5,000RPM. A bit tricky when commuting!


Cheers,

Low-Life

Jason Creasey
02-02-2004, 10:50
Originally posted by acampbel
But .... the fuelling problems are still there.

I am going to try one more time at the 12,000km service but I doubt whether Honda will replace or reprogramme the ECU for nothing.

It's certainly worth a go Low Life: As I'm sure you know, some dealers have been doing this in the UK (under warranty) which would suggest you have some 'official' backing on your argument to have the ECU replaced.

Some vtecs that have had this done have still had problems though...

JC

barbary
02-02-2004, 15:47
Do we know of any models that don't have all these fueling problems.

Has anyone bought an 04 model and had these problems???

Bumpkin
02-02-2004, 17:47
My '02 VTEC had Fi problems despite fitting Power Commander, 02 eliminators and a K&amp;N. No such hassles with the '03 replacement. I'm well happy with it so far :D I wouldn't go as far as to say the pikey bastards that had my '02 away did me a favour though as I still loved it glitches and all.

IMHO the Fi problems are down to bad pre-shipping set-up at the factory and/or poor PDI procedure (read next to feck all in most cases) by the supplying dealer. That's not excusing anyone, these bikes should all be the nigh-on the same considering modern production methods, someone wasn't, or still isn't, doing their job properly. Honda should 'fess up and find a solution PDQ.

Whilst it seems that the majority of VTEC owners have problems with fuelling, there's probably a minority with a loud and angry shout, why not for 7-8 k&pound; I'd expect a sorted bike and some customer service if it ain't.

Silver-Surfer
09-02-2004, 13:48
Hi guys

Just to let you know that I too have returned by VFR Vtec to my local Honda dealer with the fuelling problem.

Dealer was very good and arranged for the mechanic to take my bike out for a spin. As you might expect he couldn’t fine the problem. Anyway to cut a long story short I had a long chat about the problem, I even gave the dealer printouts from this thread to show him what was going on. He read and discussed everything with an open mind. He did say that he had heard nothing from Honda UK in relation to the problem. He also said that he recognised the Honda names on the thread and would indeed speak to Honda about the problem.

He has also arranged to get the bike back in next week and balance the starter valves. He is also going to order in a K&N and try that out to see if that too makes a difference.

Overall a reasonable outcome at this early stage.

I will keep you all posted on the outcome.

Silver-Surfer
09-02-2004, 13:48
Hi guys

Just to let you know that I too have returned by VFR Vtec to my local Honda dealer with the fuelling problem.

Dealer was very good and arranged for the mechanic to take my bike out for a spin. As you might expect he couldn’t fine the problem. Anyway to cut a long story short I had a long chat about the problem, I even gave the dealer printouts from this thread to show him what was going on. He read and discussed everything with an open mind. He did say that he had heard nothing from Honda UK in relation to the problem. He also said that he recognised the Honda names on the thread and would indeed speak to Honda about the problem.

He has also arranged to get the bike back in next week and balance the starter valves. He is also going to order in a K&N and try that out to see if that too makes a difference.

Overall a reasonable outcome at this early stage.

I will keep you all posted on the outcome.

Jason Creasey
09-02-2004, 14:28
Thanks for contributing to / helping out with this one SilverSurfer!

Who's the dealer by the way?

Jason

vfrsutton
09-02-2004, 15:20
Bike in to be looked at tuesday at nobles vtec abs 03/03 . Similar problems to teh others
Will report back next week.

MarkJHarris
09-02-2004, 22:52
Well,

I have recently bought a mint June 2003 regestered 02 ABS model. It is a late 02, and is well outside the chassis numbers that needed a recall for the subframe in Europe.

It also has absolutely no snatchiness, stuttering, stalling or similar behaviour, so it appears I'm one of the lucky ones.

I intend to leave it absolutely standard and just enjoy riding it.

Wish list?

Yes, it would be very nice if the VTEC was variable ECU controlled and not a mandatory rev limit. I bet the next Blackbird will be.

Oh, and it would be nice if it was about 30Kg lighter!!

AS my last bike was an SV650S, I got quite used to a light bike, but the throttle response of a twin has perhaps made my right hand somewhat more sensitive and maybe that's why my VFR is behaving?

I'll take it for a thrash over the TT course when the roads clear up a bit and report further if I get a problem.

-=[BAD]=-Dynamo
12-02-2004, 00:19
hi guys

update on my viffer

called dealer saturday to check on any progress to be told he was sending me a letter to basically say he cannot get bike to show the faults i have said and he will not accept bike back.

I left work and went to dealers to try the bike myself but I too could not get the bike to exhibit fault. It is not a constant fault but when it does cut-out it scares the pants off me.

We decided sunday to call honda one more time and see if they want to do something about my problem and also ask if Mark Davies got my letter. they informed me he had been out of the country all week and next day i got a letter saying as much.

The nice lady there lorrainne listened to my prob and asked me to send her the letter of rejection to her along with the mark davies letter. I have done this and now await there call back.

I hope they can do something about my problem as my only next move is my lawyers who as it happens i am visiting this week as i have bought another house to rent out.

silver surfer, what is the name of your dealer mines is two wheels, Edinburgh