DCT gearchange issues/mapping

[rb1414]

So having sung the praises (http://www.bikersoracle.com/vfr/forum/showpost.php?p=1280303&postcount=64) of the DCT on my test ride and taken delivery of my very own, my first proper journey was at the weekend down to the Isle Of Wight. I definitely made the right decision swapping the Manual for the DCT, but the ride brought to light some interesting issues. I should say that they are niggles rather than anything else.


Sometimes "S" mode holds the gear wayyy too long. It's odd that after a certain amount of time at steady throttle, it doesn't change up a gear. Rather it holds the gear even though the bike may be revving quite highly.
Switching between "D" and "S" on the move doesn't initiate a gearshift whereas switching from "D" to "S" usually does. Say I'm in "S" at 55mph and it's in 3rd gear, I switch to "D" and it stays in 3rd. If I'd been in "D" from rest, it would already be in 6th. And yet if I was in "D" at 55mph in 6th gear and switched to "S", it changes automatically to 3rd. Weird.
Say I've changed to "manual" mode and I'm in 6th at 70mph. I forget to put it back to "auto". I have to slow for a roundabout. I'm now doing 15mph. It won't have downchanged for me as the revs approach bugger-all. In fact the drivetrain is put under enormous strain, shuddering away as it's still in 6th gear. Why hasn't it downshifted automatically? Surely this is a fault?
I'm again in "manual" mode in 6th and I come to a stop. Yes it changes into 1st for me, but having done that, it doesn't automatically select the last-used "auto" mode for me; instead it's still in "manual" mode. I wish it wasn't.
I'd have preferred the Sport/Drive/Neutral mode button to have been arranged |Sport||Neutral||Drive| rather than |Sport||Drive||Neutral|. Then instead of having to press the button twice from Neutral to get into "S", I'd press it left to get "Sport" and right to get "Drive".

Of course some of these may be the result of a fault with my bike. Are other people experiencing similar/other issues?

Does anyone know whether the dealers have access to the CAN bus software/mapping and if so, could it be possible that some of the settings be changed? In my Radical with full paddleshift (albeit not DCT), we can change every aspect of the gearshift.

[redexces]

Hey RB,
I've experienced the same as you but my take is different from you. My comments in line below:




Sometimes "S" mode holds the gear wayyy too long. It's odd that after a certain amount of time at steady throttle, it doesn't change up a gear. Rather it holds the gear even though the bike may be revving quite highly.
The auto algorithm appears to employ a filter which by definition (electrical engineering) retains recent history to help guide the present decisions. Think of persistence on your old analog display monitor, that is, the image retains a brief history of the prior image before fading away. This history is necessary for the algorithm to figure out the type of riding you are doing. It can sense you are riding more agressively by a higher rate of braking and throttle roll-on in the prior turn and will therefore hold the throttle longer during acceleration after the turn. If the throttle is held in a fixed position for a few seconds (there's that persistence thing) it will then upshift. The more agressive the riding, the later (i.e. higher rpm) the upshift will be. This indicates that the algorithm is adaptive to your riding, mild up shifts at moderate pace, later upshifts as the pace increases.
Sometimes I will override just what you described by hitting the upshift trigger and remaining in manual mode.





Switching between "D" and "S" on the move doesn't initiate a gearshift whereas switching from "D" to "S" usually does. Say I'm in "S" at 55mph and it's in 3rd gear, I switch to "D" and it stays in 3rd. If I'd been in "D" from rest, it would already be in 6th. And yet if I was in "D" at 55mph in 6th gear and switched to "S", it changes automatically to 3rd. Weird.
I noticed the same thing. For some reason the transition from S to D is spread over several seconds. Maybe they figured that a soft transition to D is beneficial. OTOH, D to S is instantaneous like you said, probably because when you want more performance you want it now.





Say I've changed to "manual" mode and I'm in 6th at 70mph. I forget to put it back to "auto". I have to slow for a roundabout. I'm now doing 15mph. It won't have downchanged for me as the revs approach bugger-all. In fact the drivetrain is put under enormous strain, shuddering away as it's still in 6th gear. Why hasn't it downshifted automatically? Surely this is a fault?
NO! This is exactly the way I would expect a manual transmission to behave. Think about it, if you were on a manual, and you didn't downshift for a turn, what would you do? You would immediately downshift for the situation once you realized you were over geared. Manual is manual and no intervention should be made, with the exception of coming to a stop.





I'm again in "manual" mode in 6th and I come to a stop. Yes it changes into 1st for me, but having done that, it doesn't automatically select the last-used "auto" mode for me; instead it's still in "manual" mode. I wish it wasn't.
Again, no. If I'm riding manual, I should expect no auto intervention except for said stopping. Manual should mean manual. I would find it annoying if I were riding in manual mode and I had to shift back to manual after each stop.
Having said all this, I wouldn't be surprised if after gaining more experience with the DCT in the hands of customers, the auto algorithm is adjusted to further optimize it. Such is the case of almost all new technologies, there is a lot to learn from the real world.

[rb1414]

Sometimes I will override just what you described by hitting the upshift trigger and remaining in manual mode.Me too.



I noticed the same thing. For some reason the transition from S to D is spread over several seconds. Maybe they figured that a soft transition to D is beneficial. OTOH, D to S is instantaneous like you said, probably because when you want more performance you want it now.Agreed, but I don't think the "transition from S to D is spread over several seconds". I found that it just wouldn't make the change. I was sitting there at steady throttle, having made the change from "S" to "D" like ages ago, the engine revving wayyy above what it would normally be in "D" mode, and it simply did not make the upshift. I had to upshift manually and then revert to "D" mode again.



NO! This is exactly the way I would expect a manual transmission to behave. Think about it, if you were on a manual, and you didn't downshift for a turn, what would you do? You would immediately downshift for the situation once you realized you were over geared. Manual is manual and no intervention should be made, with the exception of coming to a stop.I know where you're coming from, but I stand by what I said. The bike won't let you downshift if doing so would take the revs over the redline, so why shouldn't it say to itself; "Right, I'm doing 21mph in sixth gear at 1500rpm. Under no possible combination of circumstances is this good for either riding or for my mates in the transmission system. Sorry Rog, I'm downshifting whether you like it or not." I have to say, I'd be like "Thanks auto box, I'd just forgotten that I was in manual mode and bless you for intervening." I'm not asking for a massively clever downshift that anticipates the road conditions ahead, simply that below (say) 2000rpm with a closed throttle, the downshift is made.

My automatic road car downshifts on my behalf when I've been using it in "Manual" mode. Because it has a powerful engine, the downshifts can be particularly noticeable, but not only am I used to it, I think it's right.



Again, no. If I'm riding manual, I should expect no auto intervention except for said stopping. Manual should mean manual. I would find it annoying if I were riding in manual mode and I had to shift back to manual after each stop. I accept that some might prefer "manual" to mean "manual". I think on balance I would prefer to have the default position to be the box reverting to the last-used auto mode ("D" or "S") once a stop has been made and where the bike has had to make the necessary downshift to get into 1st by itself. If however, I've manually downshifted to 1st, then I agree it should definitely stay in "manual" mode.


Having said all this, I wouldn't be surprised if after gaining more experience with the DCT in the hands of customers, the auto algorithm is adjusted to further optimize it. Such is the case of almost all new technologies, there is a lot to learn from the real world.Total agreement. I hope and expect the bike to get "firmware updates" as time goes by. This is what I was alluding to when I asked whether the dealers have access to the CAN bus in order to effect changes. I'd love to personalise my auto settings. Mine's in for the heated grips to go on tomorrow. I'll ask them.

I wonder whether Honda themselves would be interested in this feedback so that they can make such changes according to the groundswell of owners' opinions.

[the_lecht_rocks]

the system will be PLC controlled, so a diagnostic plug-in / reflash EPROM upgrade should be available eventually, I'd expect.

[dom_f]

Me too.

The bike won't let you downshift if doing so would take the revs over the redline, so why shouldn't it say to itself; "Right, I'm doing 21mph in sixth gear at 1500rpm. Under no possible combination of circumstances is this good for either riding or for my mates in the transmission system. Sorry Rog, I'm downshifting whether you like it or not."


The manual mode on my car (BMW 745) does exactly what you describe (note this is an auto box with a man ual mode not DCT!). If I am in "manual" in 6th and slow down to say walking pace when I accelerate I am still in manual but now in 3rd. Works perfectly and is intuitive.


Dom

[Allanvfr]

The other way to think about it is that the gearbox is pre-programmed, and that the number of programs and the fuzzy logic have limitations based on the processing power and memory. In the future, it will no doubt be possible to cater for more riding situations. But that will depend on the engineers having tested them and set the computing power up to deliver them. If that means more computing power than today, we'll be upgrading our ECU's every 3-4 years.

It'll be the equivalent of upgrading from a 386 to a pentium!

[Billythebiker]

Interesting stuff... Hasn't put me off... Anyone know how a paddle shift supersports car would respond...I think the same way as the VFR...but do not know....

[rb1414]

Well, depends what you call a supercar, but if it includes a Mercedes SLK55AMG then yes, it downshifts for me as the revs drop. Even on the odd occasion I am using "manual" (paddleshift) mode, it still downchanges through the gears as the revs drop.

[Billythebiker]

Nice car... I'm lucky as a public servant to have my Mazda MX-5 ;0)

[TaskMule]

Well, depends what you call a supercar, but if it includes a Mercedes SLK55AMG then yes, it downshifts for me as the revs drop. Even on the odd occasion I am using "manual" (paddleshift) mode, it still downchanges through the gears as the revs drop.

If you're in manual mode you can't expect automatic functions, you should be manual shifting down as you slow, it's really that simple.
If you want it to downshift automatically then use an auto mode.
The VFR will never be an SLK. If you want an automatically shifting bike then you pretty well have to go along with how it does things, and adapt to it.

[Billythebiker]

I'm in two minds about getting the DCT... Is it more than just a gimmick, a tech demonstration before they test it fully and put it on the Blade?

I would have thought the Pan or Wing would have been the best place to trial it first!

But part of me is attracted to it, it's different but would I regret it once the novelty wears off?

Also I'm a little disappointed there is no traction control on this bike... So when in drive is there a reduction in power?
Wondering if D would be the best setting for adverse weather condictions!

[Ianm2310]

I had a ride on the VFR DCT yesterday when mine was getting its 8k svc:

I didn't like the D mode in any way. S mode was better but didn't shift down when I wanted it to and no matter how hard I tried I couldn't get it to "kick down" into 3rd , from 6th to 5th and 5th to 4th ok tho.
Auto mode I didn't really like.

Manual mode however, I thought was fantastic, seamless up and down shifts instantly. No jerkiness, no missed gear changesn (rider error :)) and I didn't notice any fueling issues.

Overall I liked the bike but its not that much better to warrant trading my maunual VFR12 for one. Dealer reckoned it would cost me £2.5k.
If I had waited I think I would have spent the extra on the DCT over the manual.

Re the "gimmicks", traction control is in your right hand, as are all the other gizmo's like wheely control etc. Who needs trip computors (why do we "need" to be told everything these days ? but thats a different rant :)). If you slide around/fall off on wet/greasy roads then better learn to ride :)
IMO the only useful tecnology is ABS and that was long overdue.

:beer: .... Ian

[Billythebiker]

Thing is I enjoy changing gear, like the control...just wondering if you get the same reward from it!

[Ianm2310]

Thing is I enjoy changing gear, like the control...just wondering if you get the same reward from it!

IMO, Yes. up/down exactly the same but no clutch and much faster changes than human could manage.
Slow speed manouvering was also no prob. I thought there would be some issues with that but just drag the rear brake to control the speed, no worries.

:beer: ... Ian

[Billythebiker]

Does your left leg still twitch every time you grab a gear?
I'm leaning towards the DCT now!

[_Rob_]

Manual mode however, I thought was fantastic, seamless up and down shifts instantly. No jerkiness, no missed gear changesn (rider error :)) and I didn't notice any fueling issues.:beer: .... Ian

I so agree with that Ian ;)

I have been lent an auto whilst my two bikes are some work done on them, just a few little extras nothing serous, anyway, the auto.

D mode is next to useless, into a 30mph zone it stayed in 6th gear, chugging, clanging away, I had to change to 3rd via the manual switch.

Sport mode, great but as mentioned here stays far to long in a gear, I accelerated quickly to 50mph held it there as that was the limit for the road, travelled a mile and would it change from second, nope, I had to manually change.

In manual it is great, smooth changes under riders control, I was though moving my left foot to change as I was using the manual switch :}

I did struggle with a tight u-turn ending up half way across stopping the bike and reversing it a little to get around, maybe a little practice and would be fine but I miss the clutch control, feathering the brake didn't help on this u-turn.

I love the auto when in manual, which is somewhat a contradiction of the concept in my mind.

I can understand why some may like the auto and good luck to you all, great that you enjoy it.

Rob :)

[Allanvfr]

Thing is I enjoy changing gear, like the control...just wondering if you get the same reward from it!

Billy, do it, get one, you know you want to. Do it, do it do it..

[Billythebiker]

Wavering again...will have to wait till test rides.....

[rb1414]

If you're in manual mode you can't expect automatic functions, you should be manual shifting down as you slow, it's really that simple.Thanks for the lesson in what I can and can't expect from Honda's new DCT.

It's clever enough to disallow a manual downshift if such a shift would take the engine over the rev limit. I don't think it would be a great leap of imagination to engineer software that would enable the bike to automatically downshift as the engine revs drop below a fixed threshold; say 2000 rpm.

[Allanvfr]

Alternatively, you buy one and get used to what it does or can do, not gripe about what it can't.
After all a manual gearbox needs you to change gear, and you have to pull in the clutch at the same time. Why can't it change gear when I press the indicator button. Now that wouldn't be difficult to do, would it?.....

[rb1414]

Not quite sure what your point is. I don't think I'm griping. I love the bike. Are you trying to say I'm wrong? It's my point of view.

I think it is rather strange that Honda on the one hand intervene to protect the engine by disallowing downshifts (as I've mentioned before) and then on the other hand don't intervene to protect the drivetrain by auto downshifting when the engine revs drop below the point at which real damage can take place. They HAVE chosen to make it automatically select 1st gear when the bike's stationary, even if you're in "manual" mode.

I'd have thought it was a no-brainer myself.

Am I missing something here? Is there some particular reason that you'd not want an auto downshift to protect your drivetrain? Or is there some reason you'd be happy for the bike to be in 6th gear at 10mph? Because that is exactly what it can do at the moment. Personally I'm surprised it can do that.

[Billythebiker]

If the VFR tops the test rides, which it very may well as I am a Honda man... Then it will for me be down to control and feel, if I can get that from the DCT that'll be enough for me to buy it...

[AV8or]

I think it is rather strange that Honda on the one hand intervene to protect the engine by disallowing downshifts (as I've mentioned before) and then on the other hand don't intervene to protect the drivetrain by auto downshifting when the engine revs drop below the point at which real damage can take place. They HAVE chosen to make it automatically select 1st gear when the bike's stationary, even if you're in "manual" mode.

I'd have thought it was a no-brainer myself.

Am I missing something here? Is there some particular reason that you'd not want an auto downshift to protect your drivetrain? Or is there some reason you'd be happy for the bike to be in 6th gear at 10mph? Because that is exactly what it can do at the moment. Personally I'm surprised it can do that.

I think you are missing something 'cos it does change down automatically in the manual mode if it's going too slow. At least mine does. :)

No manual bike will do that!

[dom_f]

I love the auto when in manual, which is somewhat a contradiction of the concept in my mind.

Rob :)


Given its a "real" clutch and "real" gears isn;t it just another type of quickshifter in that mode?


Dom

[Allanvfr]

Yeah but a quick shifter won't quick shift down the gears.
Anyway my previous point is that it does what it does. Therefore you need a bit of time to get used to it and actually see if you want one. Which is why you can do an all day test ride on the DCT. I was intrigued after the first, brief test ride and was convinced after a 3 hour test ride.;)